In our second episode, we consider where we're headed with a rogue president in charge of a rogue state. We take a look back at how people stood up against torture after 9/11 and show how everyday Americans are already defying Trump allies this week.

Andrea Pitzer returns to a longtime source, Mark Fallon, who was at one time NCIS chief of counterintelligence for Europe, Africa, and the Middle East. In the months after 9/11, Fallon worked to stop the torture program at Guantanamo in its early development, later going public to denounce the U.S. embrace of illegal methods.

When she first talked to him almost a decade ago, Fallon told her that the torture program had turned the U.S. into a rogue state, and that accountability would be required to return the country to democracy. In light of Trump's willingness to ignore the rule of law both domestically and abroad in ways far beyond most U.S. presidents, Andrea considers what it means to have a shameless executive in charge of a rogue state and how we might follow Fallon's example by standing up in the face of unethical or illegal activities. She offers a heartening early example from Oklahoma of people doing just that.

From the moment election results started rolling in, people have been wondering how bad life will get during a second Trump Administration.

A decade ago, Andrea Pitzer went around the world to talk to people who had survived authoritarian rule, in order to write the first comprehensive history of concentration camps, ONE LONG NIGHT. 

In this first episode of Next Comes What, recorded three days after the election, she talks about different ways that authoritarians have come to power, how Trump's rise relates to them, the real danger we're now in, some good news about why it won't all go the way Trump is planning, four areas where we'll likely see aggressive measures in January 2025, and a long list of ways (large and small!) for you to use the next two months to protect yourself and help preserve democracy.