In this episode of The Curiosity Shop, Brené Brown and Adam Grant unpack the paradoxes that shape our lives, relationships, leadership, and decision-making. They explore the Abilene Paradox, the Stockdale Paradox, why groups often make decisions nobody actually wants, and how people balance gritty facts with gritty faith. The conversation moves through spirituality, teamwork, family dynamics, optimism, creativity, and even unexpected debates about Twilight and Pitch Perfect. Funny, thoughtful, and deeply human, this episode examines why two opposite truths can exist at the same time and why learning to live inside that tension may be one of the most important skills we have.  You can find The Curiosity Shop on ?YouTube? and ?Instagram? (@thecuriosityshop). 00:00 Intro: Paradoxes, Dad Jokes & Big Questions 04:20 What Is a Paradox? 10:15 The Grace Paradox 19:02 The Abilene Paradox 27:04 How to Avoid the Abilene Paradox 30:45 Guilty Pleasures: Twilight, Pitch Perfect & Eurovision 38:38 Aesthetic Chills & The Big Five 43:08 The Stockdale Paradox Explained 46:48 Gritty Facts vs. Gritty Faith 49:47 Why Leaders Need Paradoxical Thinking 51:04 MLK?s ?I Have a Dream? Speech 55:39 Candor Over Consensus 57:32 Comfort vs. Courage 1:02:06 Jim Collins & The Genius of the And 1:06:48 Harvard's Anti-Grade Inflation Policy 1:09:21 How Brené Grades Group Projects 1:13:19 Building the Muscle to Hold Paradox 1:14:54 Personal Paradoxes & The Grace of Getting It Wrong Lump - Allison Sweet Grant, September 2026, Little, Brown and Co. (Forthcoming book) Both/And Thinking: Embracing Creative Tensions to Solve Your Toughest Problems - Smith & Lewis, 2022, Harvard Business Review Press (Book) Toward A Theory of Paradox: A Dynamic Equilibrium Model of Organizing - Smith & Lewis, 2011, Academy of Management Review Vibe: The Secrets of Strong Connections in a Lonely World - Adam Grant, October 2026, Vking (Forthcoming book) Holding the Tension, The Wisdom of Paradox - Adapted, 2024, from Richard Rohr, The Naked Now: Learning to See as the Mystics See, 2009, Center for Action and Contemplation, Strong Ground: The Lessons of Daring Leadership, the Tenacity of Paradox, and the Wisdom of the Human Spirit - Brené Brown, 2025, Random House SmartLess (Guest: Stephen Colbert) - Arnett, Bateman & Hayes, SiriusXM/Wondery (Podcast) The Abilene Paradox: The Management of Agreement - Harvey, 1974, Organizational Dynamics Eurovision Song-Along: Story of Fire Saga: "Song-Along" - Dobking, D. (Director), 2020, Netflix (Movie clip) Grease: "You're The One That I Want" - Kleiser, R. (Director) 1978, Paramount Pictures (Movie clip) Brain Connectivity Reflects Human Aesthetic Responses to Music - Sachs, Ellis, Schlaug & Loui, 2016, Social Cognitive and Affective Neuroscience Aesthetic Chills as a Universal Marker of Openness to Experience - McCrae, 2007, Motivation and Emotion The Stockdale Paradox - Jim Collins, 2017, jimcollins.com Good to Great: Why Some Companies Make the Leap... and Others Don't - Jim Collins, 2001, HarperBusiness (Book) Dare to Lead: Brave Work. Tough Conversations. Whole Hearts - Brené Brown, 2018, Random House (Book) The Discovery of Grounded Theory: Strategies for Qualitative Research - Barney Glaser and Anselm Strauss, 1967, Aldine (Book) It's 2020, Stop Saying 'Negative Nancy' - Sexist colloquialisms to avoid - Eskreis-Winkler, 2020, An Injustice! (Magazine) https://www.feministlawprofessors.com/2008/07/nervous-nellie-was-not-a-woman/ The Will and the Ways: Development and Validation of an Individual-Differences Measure of Hope - Snyder et al., 1991, Journal of Personality and Social Psychology An analysis of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr's "I Have a Dream" public speech - Duarte, 2011 BE 2.0 (Beyond Entrepreneurship 2.0): Turning Your Business into an Enduring Great Company - Collins and Lazier, 2020, Portfolio/Penguin (Book) Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Marking a major personal milestone, Brené shares what led her to 30 years of sobriety and Adam asks what it taught her about change. From there, they pivot to why Brené can?t tolerate the cringe of The Office ?and Adam?s take on how to engage with it. Finally, they deliver a masterclass on the art and science of ending social interactions, sharing the ultimate shortcut to a graceful exit. This is great!  You can find The Curiosity Shop on ?YouTube? and ?Instagram? (@thecuriosityshop). 0:00 - What Are We Talking About Today? 5:00 - Sober AF: Celebrating 30 Years of Sobriety  16:30 - Grieving for Joy 28:22 - Why Can?t Brené Watch The Office? 43:18 - Loving or Hating Violating the Rules 49:30 - The Art of Leaving Conversations Respectfully 1:03:40 - The Shortcut to a Graceful Exit 1:08:39 - What Adam and Brené Are Watching Now Gottman Institute - Research and History - Drs. Julie and John Gottman (Founded 1996) The Love Prescription, Part 2 of 3 - Brene Brown with Drs John and Julie Gottman, 2022, Unlocking Us Podcast The Power of Vulnerability - Brené Brown, 2010, TED Talk, TEDxHouston Everything You Think You Know About Addiction Is Wrong - Johann Hari, 2015, TED Talk, TEDGlobalLondon The Fresh Start Effect: Temporal Landmarks Motivate Aspirational Behavior - Dai, Milkman & Riis, 2014, Management Science Daring Greatly: How the Courage to Be Vulnerable Transforms the Way We Live, Love, Parent, and Lead - Brené Brown, 2012, book, Gotham Books I Love Lucy: Job Switching - Arnaz, 1952, CBS The Office: Scott's Tots - B.J. Novak, 2009, NBC Benign Violations: Making Immoral Behavior Funny - McGraw & Warren, 2010, Psychological Science Office Ladies - Fischer & Kinsey, 2019-present, Audacy (Podcast) Do Conversations End When People Want Them To? - Mastroianni et al., 2021, Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences Politeness: Some Universals in Language Usage - Brown & Levinson, 1987, Cambridge University Press (Book) Want to Improve Your Relationship? Start Paying More Attention to Bids - Logan Ury, 2026, Gottman Institute The Virtues of Gossip: Reputational Information Sharing as Prosocial Behavior - Feinberg, Willer, Stellar & Keltner, 2012, Journal of Personality and Social Psychology Jury Duty - Eisenberg & Stupnitsky, 2023-2026, Amazon Prime Video (Television Series)  Jury Duty Presents: Company Retreat - Eisenberg & Stupnitsky, 2026, Amazon Prime Video (Television Series) The Madison - 2026, Sheridan, Paramount+ (Television Series) Landman - Sheridan, 2024-present, Paramount+ (Television Series) Opening Up Closings - Schegloff & Sacks, 1973, Semiotica Closing the Conversation: Evidence from the Academic Advising Session - Hartford & Bardovi-Harlig, 1992, Discourse Processes Collaborative Strategies in Chinese Telephone Conversation Closings - Sun, 2005, Pragmatics Ending Social Encounters - Albert & Kessler, 1978, Journal of Experimental Social Psychology Relations in Public: Microstudies of the Public Order - Erving Goffman, 1971, Basic Books (Book) Sorry for Your Kindness: Japanese Interactional Ritual in Public Discourse - Ide, 1998, Journal of Pragmatics Getting Down to Business: Talk, Gaze, and Body Orientation During Openings of Doctor-Patient Consultations - Robinson, 1998, Human Communication Research Negotiating Last-Minute Concerns in Closing Korean Medical Encounters - Park, 2013, Social Science & Medicine Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Do you find yourself defaulting to ?Preacher? mode when you?re under pressure, or starting to act like a ?Prosecutor? when someone challenges your ideas? Brené and Adam unpack four mental modes ? Preacher, Prosecutor, Politician, and Scientist ? to explore why we often cling to being right rather than getting it right. In this episode, they discuss how these defensive stances are shaping our response to AI, Brené?s ?bounce? method for emotional hypothesis-testing, Adam?s go-to ?strategy of small losses,? and ways to stay curious when the stakes are high. You can find The Curiosity Shop on ?YouTube? and ?Instagram? (@thecuriosityshop). 0:00 - Introduction and Emoting 3:00 - Thinking Under Thread 11:00 - Testing Your Gut with Small Experiments 22:30 - The Integrity of Commitment: The Making of This Podcast 27:15 - Four Thinking Modes: Scientist, Preacher, Prosecutor, Politician 33:57 - When Opinions Become Beliefs 42:48 - The Social Costs of Changing Our Minds 51:30 - A Missing Mental Model: Teacher 59:30 - Wrap up Think Again: The Power of Knowing What You Don't Know - Adam Grant, 2021, Book Eric Ries on ?The Lean Startup? - Eric Ries, 2011, Knowledge at Wharton Learning Through Failure: The Strategy of Small Losses - Sitkin, 1992, Research in Organizational Behavior Affective Forecasting - Wilson & Gilbert, 2003, Advances in Experimental Social Psychology Atlas of the Heart - Brené Brown, 2021 (Book) The Science of the Deal - Adam Grant, WorkLife with Adam Grant Podcast The Power of Vulnerability - Brené Brown, 2011, TED The Surprising Habits of Original Thinkers - Adam Grant, 2016, TED Beliefs Are Like Possessions - Abelson, 2007, Journal for the Theory of Social Behaviour We Need to Talk about Astrology - Adam Grant, 2024, Substack  The Diplomat - Cahn et al., 2023-present, Let's Not Turn This Into a Whole Big Production & Well Red, Netflix (TV series) Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Brené and Adam discuss the power ? and peril ? of the words we choose. They dive into two Machiavellian communication tools that often do more harm than good: the "Invisible Army" and "BS Disclaimers". Brené explains why leading with ?we? or ?but? often comes across as requesting permission to escape accountability, which ultimately sacrifices trust more than anything. Adam explores how these tools can sometimes serve as survival strategies in toxic cultures, leading to a conversation on psychological safety, groupthink, and why precision of language is more important than ever ? especially in a world that still judges based on gender and identity. You can find The Curiosity Shop on ?YouTube? and ?Instagram? (@thecuriosityshop). 0:00 - Introduction 1:10 - The Invisible Army 15:23 - Speaking Up and Pluribus 21:26 - ?But? or Escaping Accountability? 40:59 - Responsibility Versus Accountability 46:22 - Judgment Based on Gender and Identity  1:01:55 - Takeaways From Today?s Episode Armored Versus Daring Leadership, Part 2 of 2 - Brené Brown, 2021, Dare to Lead (Podcast) Getting credit for proactive behavior: Supervisor reactions depend on what you value and how you feel - Grant et al., 2009, Personnel Psychology Plur1bus - Gilligan et al., 2025 - Present, Sony Pictures; Apple TV+ (TV series) Does Performance Improve Following Multisource Feedback? A Theoretical Model, Meta-Analysis, and Review of Empirical Findings - Smither et al., 2005, Personnel Psychology Feedback effectiveness: Can 360-degree appraisals be improved? - DeNisi et al., 2000, Academy of Management Perspectives What Makes a 360-Degree Review Successful? - Zenger and Folkman, 2020, Harvard Business Review The bullshit asymmetry [sic]: the amount of energy needed to refute bullshit is an order of magnitude bigger - Brandolini, A., 2013, Twitter The power of powerless speech: The effects of speech style and task interdependence on status conferral - Fragale, 2006, Organizational Behavior and Human Decision Processes How Can Women Escape the Compensation Negotiation Dilemma? Relational Accounts Are One Answer - Bowles et al., 2013, Psychology of Women Quarterly Likeable Badass: How Women Get the Success They Deserve - Fragale, 2024, Doubleday Strong Ground: The Lessons of Daring Leadership, the Tenacity of Paradox, and the Wisdom of the Human Spirit - Brené Brown, 2025, Random House Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

In this episode of The Curiosity Shop, Brené Brown and Adam Grant dive into the return?to?office debate and argue that most conversations are stuck at the wrong level. Instead of asking ?How many days in the office??, they ask, ?What problem are you actually trying to solve?? They explore evidence on hybrid work, weak?tie innovation, culture and belonging, and why some leaders still cling to ?butts in seats? as a proxy for performance. Along the way, they introduce a systems?thinking ?iceberg? tool for getting below the surface of policy fights to the patterns, structures, and mental models driving them. You can find The Curiosity Shop on ?YouTube? and ?Instagram? (@thecuriosityshop). 0:00 - What?s Surprising Us About This Podcast?  1:49 - Return to Office  22:06 - Challenging Your Return to Office Mental Model 34:15 - Birth Order 40:18 - Tradeoff Between Authenticity and Editing https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/peps.12641 https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/worklife-with-adam-grant-the-dos-and-donts/id1346314086?i=1000565464077 https://www.wsj.com/lifestyle/workplace/the-real-meaning-of-freedom-at-work-11633704877 https://www.researchgate.net/publication/381373698_Hybrid_working_from_home_improves_retention_without_damaging_performance https://hbr.org/2014/01/to-raise-productivity-let-more-employees-work-from-home https://sloanreview.mit.edu/article/seven-truths-about-hybrid-work-and-productivity/ https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/The-effects-of-remote-work-on-collaboration-among-Yang-Jaffe/bff6dabad6d264c0f34678a788e20df1b015656d https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/2041386614564105 https://www.researchgate.net/publication/44605966_The_Strength-of-Weak-Ties_Perspective_on_Creativity_A_Comprehensive_Examination_and_Extension https://www.cs.cmu.edu/~jure/pub/papers/granovetter73ties.pdf https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1802407115 https://www.researchgate.net/publication/361135288_Remote_Collaboration_Fuses_Fewer_Breakthrough_Ideas https://oms-www.files.svdcdn.com/production/downloads/academic/Disrupting-Science-Upload-2022-4.pdf https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=4675401 https://www.atlassian.com/blog/distributed-work/intentional-togetherness-research https://donellameadows.org/archives/leverage-points-places-to-intervene-in-a-system/ https://sloanreview.mit.edu/article/coming-to-a-new-awareness-of-organizational-culture/ https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/epdf/10.1080/10720537.2026.2613112?needAccess=true https://psycnet.apa.org/record/1956-04524-000 https://www.nber.org/papers/w30866 https://www.amazon.com/Originals-How-Non-Conformists-Move-World/dp/014312885X https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1506451112 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

From classrooms and locker rooms to workplaces and social media, Adam and Brené trace how shame and humiliation are used to control behavior and even fuel violence. They explore what causes shame, why our self-protective responses backfire, and how we can handle it more effectively. They also unpack the messy overlap between imposter syndrome and cultural pressures toward self-doubt. You can find The Curiosity Shop on ?YouTube? and ?Instagram? (@thecuriosityshop). Chapter Titles + Timestamps: 0:00 - Introduction 2:10 - The One, Two, Threes of Shame 8:52 - The New Research on Humiliation 14:04 - What Is Humiliation? 18:30 - Why Don?t People Outgrow Shame? 29:09 - How to Help People Out of Shame? 38:05 - Reconnecting Your Prefrontal Cortex Post-Shame 42:55 - How Does Shame Relate to Imposter Syndrome? 50:10 - Biggest Takeaways About Shame, Guilt, Humiliation, and Embarrassment Why Feelings of Guilt May Signal Leadership Potential - Marina Krakovsky, 2012, Insights by Stanford Business (Introducing the work of Schaumberg)  Unwanted identities: A key variable in shame-anger links and gender differences in shame - Ferguson et al., Sex Roles Humiliation: Causes, correlates, and consequences - Elison & Harter, 2007, from The self?conscious emotions: Theory and research  Healing Humiliation: From Reaction to Creative Action - Hartling & Linder, 2016, Journal of Counseling & Development Shame and Humiliation: From Isolation to Relational Transformation - Hartling et al., Stone Center for Developmental Services and Studies Strengthening resilience in a risky world: It?s all about relationships - Hartling, 2003, Women & Therapy  Stop Telling Women They Have Imposter Syndrome - Ruchika Tulshyan & Jodi-Ann Burey, 2021, Harvard Business Review How imposter syndrome can be your superpower - MIT Sloan Office Of Communications, 2025 (Introducing the work of Basima Tewfik) Unmasking the Impostor - MIT Sloan Office of Communications, 2025 (Tewfik, Debunking 4 myths)  Listening to shame, Brené Brown, 2012, TED The Power of Vulnerability, Brené Brown, 2011, TED Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today's episode is about learning to sit with uncertainty. The episode opens with a discussion of listener questions on how to handle risk, the ingredients of a great apology, and why people stay loyal to relationships and organizations that quietly drain them. Then Brené and Adam turn to uncertainty ? how our brains are wired for a threat response, what intolerance of uncertainty actually is, and why it can drive people toward authoritarian leaders.   You can find The Curiosity Shop on ?YouTube? and ?Instagram? (@thecuriosityshop). 0:00 - Introduction and Guest Questions 3:20 - Is Risk Something to Review or Reveal 13:40 - Why do People Stay Loyal to Bad Relationships? 22:28 - Strategies for Apologizing and Repair 32:33 - Is Uncertainty a Strength or Deficit for Leaders? 40:15 - Intolerance for Uncertainty 52:00 - Terror Management Theory and our Response to Uncertainty 59:50 - How Can We Manage Uncertainty 1:05:00 - Closing Show Notes: Capabilities, Cognition and Inertia: Evidence from Digital Imaging - Tripsas and Gavetti, 2000, Harvard Business School (Polaroid Study) The Fearless Organization: Creating Psychological Safety in the Workplace for Learning, Innovation, and Growth - Amy Edmondson, 2019, Book Is it Safe to Speak Up at Work? - Adam Grant and Amy Edmonson, July 2021, Worklife with Adam Grant Podcast Anchored, Aligned, Accountable: A Framework for Transcending Bullsh*t and Transforming Our Lives and Work (Foreword by Brené Brown) - Aiko Bethea, 2026, Book Predicting Exit Voice Loyalty and Neglect - Withey and Cooper, 1989, Administrative Science Quarterly Exit, Voice, and Loyalty: Responses to Decline in Firms, Organizations, and States -  Albert Hirschman,1970, Book The Decision Lab: System Justification Theory The Secrets of a Great Apology - Adam Grant and Beth Polin, 2025, WorkLife with Adam Grant Podcast The Dance of Anger: A Woman's Guide to Changing the Patterns of Intimate Relationships - Harriet Lerner, 2025, Book I?m Sorry: How to Apologize and Why It Matters, Part 1 of 2 - Brené Brown and Harriet Lerner, 2020, Unlocking Us with Brene Brown Podcast Conclave - Robert Harris, 2016, Book A Comprehensive Analysis of COVID-19 Misinformation, Public Health Impacts, and Communication Strategies: Scoping Review - Kisa, 2024, Journal of Medical Internet Research   Into the Unknown: A Review and Synthesis of Contemporary Models Involving Uncertainty - Carleton, 2016, Journal of Anxiety Disorders Conceptual Models of Generalized Anxiety Disorder - Fisher and Wells, 2011, Psychiatric Annals  The Other Side of Change: Who We Become When Life Makes Other Plans - Maya Shankar, 2026, Book   Aftereffects of Stress on Human Performance and Social Behavior: A Review of Research and Theory - Cohen (Includes the work of Glass and Singer), 1980, Carnegie Mellon Research University Hofstede's Cultural Dimensions on Uncertainty Avoidance Compensatory Conviction in the Face of Personal Uncertainty: Going to Extremes and Being Oneself - Mcgregor et al., 2001, Journal of Personality and Social Psychology Are Needs to Manage Uncertainty and Threat Associated With Political Conservatism or Ideological Extremity? - Jost et al, 2007, Personality and Social Psychology Bulletin The Causes and Consequences of a Need For Self-esteem: A Terror Management Theory - Greenberg, Pyszczynski, & Solomon, 1986, Book chapter Foolproof: Why We Fall for Misinformation and How to Build Immuninity - Sander van der Linden, 2023, Book Utterly Humbled by Mystery - Richard Rohr, 2006, NPR Morning Edition Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What happens when your confidence outruns your competence? Brené and Adam start with freestyle skiing champ Eileen Gu?s extraordinary Olympic press conference and use it to explore metacognition?how to notice your thinking, question it, and change it on purpose. They dig into the Dunning?Kruger effect, calibration, journaling, and feedback, discuss why we?re so bad at estimating timelines, and consider how ?I?ve got this? energy can quietly wreck projects, relationships, and learning. From pickleball and ping pong to therapy and team meetings, this episode is about building the inner game of better thinking without losing your nerve along the way. You can find the Curiosity Shop on YouTube? and Instagram? (@thecuriosityshop). Chapters: 0:00 - Introductions 3:45 - Eileen Gu?s Metacognition   12:22 - What is Metacognition?  25:10 - What is Dunning-Kruger? 38:14 - Time Estimation and The Planning Fallacy  44:36 - Metacognition and Dunning-Kruger Final Thoughts  58:17 - Wrap up Shownotes: I hate minimalism - Hank Green, TikTok Strong Ground: The Lessons of Daring Leadership, the Tenacity of Paradox, and the Wisdom of the Human Spirit - Brené Brown, 2025, Book  Metacognition and Cognitive Monitoring: A New Area of Cognitive-Developmental Inquiry - Flavell, 1979 Explaining the Dunning-Kruger effect and overcoming overconfidence with David Dunning - Adam Grant, 2024, Worklife with Adam Grant Think Again: The Power of Knowing What You Don't Know - Adam Grant, 2021, Book Intuitive Prediction: Biases and Corrective Procedures - Kahneman & Tversky, 1979, Office of Naval Research Daniel Kahneman Doesn't Trust Your Intuition - Adam Grant, 2023,  Re:Thinking with Adam Grant  The Story Rumble Process: A Guide for Groups and Teams - Brené Brown, Dare to Lead, 2018 The learning benefits of teaching: A retrieval practice hypothesis - Koh, 2018 Hidden Potential: The Science of Achieving Greater Things - Adam Grant, 2023, Book Unskilled and Unaware of It: How Difficulties in Recognizing One's Own Incompetence Lead to Inflated Self-Assessments - Kruger & Dunning, 1999, Cornell University The Inner Game of Tennis - The Classic Guide to the Mental Side of Peak Performance - Timothy Gallwey, 1974, Book Charlotte Harpur and Eileen Gu, Final Press Conference, 2026 Winter Olympics, Milano, Italy. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This week, Brené and Adam are live at SXSW! They explore why so many people are vulnerable to narcissistic leaders. The conversation covers the conditions that breed narcissistic leadership, the roles of shame and fear, and how to survive a narcissistic boss, and what it means to lead with mission over ego. You can find The Curiosity Shop on YouTube and Instagram (@thecuriosityshop). Chapters: 0:00 - Introduction 3:14 - Why People Are Vulnerable to Narcissistic Leaders 12:21 - Shame-Based Fear 18:04 - Do We Think About Emotions Wrong? 19:21 - Undue Credit and the Narcissistic Leader 26:00 - Mission Over Ego 29:52 - How to Manage a Narcissistic Boss 39:18 - Anxiety as a Path to Narcissism 47:45 - Judging Impairs Judgement 1:02:20 - Closing Show Notes: Adam Grant, Why We Fall for Narcissistic Leaders, Starting in Grade School, NYT 2025. O'Reilly et al. 2001 When 'Me' Trumps 'We': Narcissistic Leaders and the Cultures They Create, 2021. Brené Brown, "Shame shields" in The Dare to Lead Glossary: Key Language skills, tools, and practices. (pg. 15-16) Bagozzi et al. 2003 (A study on cross-cultural differences in reaction to shame) Brené Brown, Dan Pink on The Power of Regret, Dare to Lead, 2022 We're The Millers (Trailer) 2013, Awkward Roadtrip Moments: No Ragrets George Saunders, "Failures of Kindness", Convocation Speech, 2013 Emily Grijalva et al. 2020 (A study of the impact of narcissim on NBA team performance) How Brené Brown and Lumen CEO Kate Johnson Sparked This Telecom Comeback, WSJ Leadership Institute, 2025 (11:25) Adam Grant, Unless You're Oprah, ?Be Yourself? Is Terrible Advice - Adam Grant 2016 NYT My response to Adam Grant?s New York Times Op/ED: Unless You're Oprah, ?Be Yourself? Is Terrible Advice - Brené Brown LinkedIn 2016 Watts et al, 2014 (A study of grandiose narcissism and vulnerable narcissism in U.S. Presidents) Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Brené and Adam have a bracingly honest conversation about what could go wrong in their collaboration, and how to set new teams, partnerships, and friendships up for success. They discuss the science of avoiding failure and building alignment, and practical strategies for navigating differences?including their own clashing instincts around minimalism vs. maximalism and sarcasm vs. trashtalk. The episode closes with what each of them is listening to, watching, and reading right now. You can also find The Curiosity Shop on YouTube and Instagram (@thecuriosityshop). Chapters: 00:00 - How Brené Inadvertently Launched Adam into Podcasting 02:57 - Interpreting Sarcasm  16:08 - How to Prevent Failure 28:57 - How Could This Partnership Could Go Wrong 38:42 - Learning From Differences 52:05 - How to Align Teams   1:02:00 - Closing Questions Show Notes: Brené and Adam on What They Will Never Agree On - The Curiosity Shop Episode 1 Unless You?re Oprah, ?Be Yourself? Is Terrible Advice - Adam Grant 2016 NYT Op-Ed My response to Adam Grant?s New York Times Op/ED: Unless You?re Oprah, ?Be Yourself? Is Terrible Advice - Brené Brown 2016 LinkedIn How to Love Criticism - Adam Grant 2018 WorkLife with Adam Grant Adam Grant on The Power of Knowing What You Don?t Know - Brené Brown and Adam Grant 2021 Dare To Lead Podcast Brené Brown on What Vulnerability Isn?t - Adam Grant and Brené Brown 2023 Re: Thinking Ted Audio Collective Hypervigilance in Mary Poppins (1964) The art and science of trash talk with Rafi Kohan - Adam Grant 2024 Work Life With Adam Grant Performing a Project Premortem - Gary Klein 2007 HBR Evaluating the Effectiveness of the PreMortem Technique on Plan Confidence - Veinot, Klein, & Wiggins 2010 ISCRAM Conference The Economics of Gender Differences in Employment Outcomes in Academia - Donna Ginther 2006 National Library of Medicine Leverage Points: Places to Intervene in a System - Donnella Meadows 1999 The Donella Meadows Project Academy for Systems Change Narcissists: Are We Surrounded? On Science Vs: - Wendy Zukerman 2024 Science VS Podcast Human Raised: Nurturing Connection, Curiosity, & Lifelong Learning in the Age - Dana Suskind, MD 2026 Book The Killing Stones A Detective Jimmy Perez Novel - Ann Cleeves 2025 Book Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Welcome to The Curiosity Shop! In the inaugural episode, Brené and Adam discuss how a public disagreement about authenticity almost ended their relationship before it began. For the first time, they discuss where they went wrong, why they changed their minds about each other, and what they learned about repair and trust. They also explore what healthy authenticity looks like, and dive into the many things they may still never fully see eye to eye on ? from email vs. texting to remote work to faith. Show Notes Unless You?re Oprah, ?Be Yourself? Is Terrible Advice - Adam Grant 2016 NYT Op-Ed The Fine Line Between Helpful and Harmful Authenticity - Adam Grant 2020 NYT Authenticity Is a Double-Edged Sword -  Adam Grant 2020 WorkLife with Adam Grant Podcast  My response to Adam Grant?s New York Times Op/ED: Unless You?re Oprah, ?Be Yourself? Is Terrible Advice - Brené Brown LinkedIn 2016 The Dangers of Being Authentic - Adam Grant LinkedIn 2016 In Tough Times, Psychological Safety Is a Requirement, Not a Luxury  - Michael Blanding 2025 HBR Jecker & Landy: Liking a person as a function of doing him a favour  - Jecker & Landy 1969 APA PsycNet Adam Grant on The Power of Knowing What You Don?t Know  - Brené Brown and Adam Grant 2021 Dare To Lead Podcast Brené Brown on What Vulnerability Isn?t - Adam Grant and Brené Brown 2023 Re: Thinking Ted Audio Collective A Whole New Mind (Right-Brainers will Rule the Future)  - Daniel H. Pink 2005 Book The Neuroscience of You: How Every Brain Is Different and How to Understand Yours  - Chantel Prat 2022 Book Dr. Harriet Lerner on I?m Sorry: How to Apologize and Why It Matters, Part 1 of 2  - Brené Brown and Dr. Harriet Lerner 2020 Unlocking Us Podcast Happy Gilmore Scene - I?m Stupid You?re Smart - Happy Gilmore 1996 Movie Shame and Guilt - June Price Tangney 2002 Book Daniel Kahneman: Doesn't Trust Your Intuition - Adam Grant and Daniel Kahneman 2021 Re:Thinking But yes, Blue Jays are master mimics Sponsor List Thank you to SAS and Canva! Chapters Titles + Timestamps 0:00 - Introduction 3:26 - Our First Disagreement 18:45 - Our Path Here 28:31 - Approach to Repair an Apology 51:02 - Closing Question Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Research professor Brené Brown and organizational psychologist Adam Grant are partnering on a new weekly podcast grounded in an unflinching commitment to learning and unlearning. At a time when public discourse rewards certainty over inquiry, The Curiosity Shop will see two of the world?s most influential thought leaders make the case for slowing down, asking better questions, and embracing informed complexity over easy answers. Bringing together their left and right brain sensibilities ? she?s a qualitative researcher; he?s a quantitative researcher ? they will explore some of the defining questions of our time, unpack the research reshaping how we live, lead, and love, and dive deep into the ideas, evidence, and cultural moments intriguing them the most. Tune in for the first episode on Thursday, March 19! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

In the second part of an Ask Me Anything episode around Strong Ground, Brené shares an excerpt from the Strong Ground audiobook that walks listeners through the one topic that elicited the most questions ? the Above/Below the Line practice. This is one of the most profound self-awareness tools we discovered! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

In part one of an Ask Me Anything episode around Strong Ground, Brené answers questions from listeners about mindset shifts, leading from where you are, and courage and boldness in uncertain times. She highlights the importance of pausing during big decisions where action is not always impact, breaks down how to be courageous when it?s not the popular choice, and emphasizes the role of curiosity and thoughtfulness when moving through uncertainty and overwhelm. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

In the final episode of a special ?Dare to Lead? series with Adam Grant, Brené and Adam discuss the problem with rewarding all effort as excellence. Instead, leaders should reward effort that is not leading to success or mastery with their time through coaching, mentoring, and sharing their own experiences of transformation and change. They also explore how to approach decisions based on how consequential and reversible they are and highlight the role that leaders play in setting up others for success by making sure their team has what they need. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

In the fifth episode of a special ?Dare to Lead? series with Adam Grant, Brené and Adam break down the skillsets of empathy, empathy misses, and how empathy is trickier than walking in someone else?s shoes. They discuss the way empathy can show up as being curious and caring ? irreducible prerequisites for good leadership. Brené shares a powerful sentence for leaders building an empathy skillset: ?What does support from me look like right now?? Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

In the fourth episode of a special ?Dare to Lead? series with Adam Grant, Brené and Adam explore the attack on empathy, the difference between cognitive empathy and affective empathy, and what separates empathy from enmeshment. Brené shares a personal story that led to a breakthrough around how to stay aligned with empathy and perspective taking instead of over-identifying and finding yourself in enmeshment ? the feeling of not knowing where you end and someone else begins. They also discuss how living in an image-heavy world can affect the way we engage with empathy. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

In the third part of a special series with Adam Grant, Brené and Adam tackle the topics of time scarcity, how a great leader doesn?t have all the right answers, but the right questions, and the difference between pocket presence and executive presence. They dig into how understanding the 5 Cs ? color, context, connective tissue, cost, and consequence ? of delegation and strategy operations can build the situational awareness, temporal awareness, systems theory, and critical thinking skills necessary for pocket presence. In their discussion, Adam shares his breakthrough of seeing pocket presence as a collective capability, whereas executive presence is ?party of one.? Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

In part two of a special series with Adam Grant on Brené?s new book, Strong Ground, Brené and Adam discuss the far and near enemies of generosity, the tug of war of paradox, and sports as leadership theater. They explore how finding our strong ground offers tethering, connection, and stability, and also the platform for explosive movement and change. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

In this special Dare to Lead episode, Brené shares one of her favorite chapters from the Strong Ground audiobook called Lock-In and Lock-Through Power. Brené uses the metaphor of a boat lock to explore the tricky work-to-home and professional-to-personal transitions that we have to navigate with our partners, children, and friends. She digs into why, at the end of a hard day, when we finally arrive home, we stay in our cars and scroll through TikTok rather than going inside, and how an intentional "locking through" process allows us to rise or lower to a new and different rhythm as we make daily transitions. And, after visiting the Teddington Lock in London and getting a lesson from the local lock keeper, she shares why moving too fast through these transitions often results in relational capsizing. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

In the first episode of a special series on Brené's new book, Strong Ground, Brené and Adam dig into the origins of Strong Ground, and what values clarity can mean for individuals, teams, and organizations. They take on the question of why there is so much more meaning in our lives and our work when we know who we are and what matters to us the most. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

In this episode Brené and Barrett discuss their learnings on AI and social media and some of their favorite nuggets from each of the guests in the series. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

In this episode, Brené and Dr. Joy discuss fighting bias in algorithms, Gender Shades - the accuracy of AI powered gender classification products, and her amazing perspective on technology as a poet, artist, and scientist. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

In this episode, Brené and Lisa discuss how we can work to close the digital divide and ensure more people have access to technology, what it means in AI speak to have a human in the loop, and the incredible ways teachers, business owners, and regular people are using AI. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Quantitative futurist Amy Webb talks to us about the three technologies that make up the "super cycle" that we're all living through right now: artificial intelligence, wearable devices, and biotechnology, and why, despite the unnerving change, we still need to do some serious future planning.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

In Part 2 of my conversation with Paul Leonardi and Tsedal Neeley, authors of The Digital Mindset: What It Really Takes to Thrive in the Age of Data, Algorithms, and AI, we talk about the importance of establishing a baseline digital literacy in our organizations and the intimate relationship between the skill sets and the mindsets we cultivate. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This two-part podcast with Paul Leonardi and Tsedal Neeley is an absolute game changer. Given how often I find myself working with leaders who are knee-high in uncertainty and vulnerability around digital transformation, I thought I had a pretty solid understanding of it. But The Digital Mindset book and this conversation turned everything upside down. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

We?re back with Part 2 of my conversation with Mike Erwin, the founder and CEO of the Character and Leadership Center and the co-author of Leadership Is a Relationship. In this episode, we continue to dig into how the most effective leaders prioritize relationships. They give feedback that calls attention to the behaviors they want to encourage, invest in the slow work of pulling and keeping people together, and navigate the trickiness of loyalty, a state that, if it starts to move us out of our values, can become transactional, not relational. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This is the first of two episodes with Mike Erwin, the founder and CEO of the Character and Leadership Center and the co-author of Leadership Is a Relationship, a timely book that details why leaders who prioritize relationships are more effective. It?s a conversation about the seven functions of relationship-building and the importance of prioritizing our relationships as people and also as leaders. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

I won?t lie: This conversation was hard as hell. But ? I?m so grateful to Lisa Lahey and all the work she and Robert Kegan have done on the ?immunity to change? theory. It explains why lasting, meaningful change is damn hard. Rather than simply talking about the process, Lisa and I actually engage in it around something I?m desperate to change (and somewhat refusing to change). She is so skilled at asking questions and framing conversations ? this is a MASTER class Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

I don?t like to think of myself as someone who?s averse to change. But, man, am I averse to change. Enter the amazing Lisa Lahey. She is a Harvard Graduate School of Education faculty member who has built a body of work to help learners and leaders overcome the innate human aversion to change. And I thought, when I asked her to join us for a two-parter on this podcast, that we?d talk about the ?immunity to change? theory ? how change happens, why it?s so hard ? from an academic perspective. Instead, she walks me through a very personal struggle around something in my life that I?ve desperately wanted to change but just seemingly cannot. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Barrett and I invite you into some research thinking and dig into the latest data on how to build brave spaces with our teams ? what gets in the way of people showing up, what gets in the way of doing the work, and how judgment is the primary killer of these spaces. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Janice Omadeke is the creator of The Mentor Method, an enterprise software that transforms company culture through mentorship. We talk about her entrepreneurship journey, from building fan sites as a hobby to being named one of Entrepreneur magazine?s 100 Women of Influence in 2022. As The Mentor Method?s founder and CEO, Janice became one of the first 100 Black women in the United States to raise over $1 million in seed funding for a tech start-up, and she is the first Black woman in Austin, Texas, history to have a venture-backed exit. This is the kind of leadership conversation we started this podcast to have, and I consider myself lucky to have met this entrepreneur. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

We are back with Part 2 with two of my friends, mentors, teachers, and co-creators, Aiko Bethea and Ruchika Tulshyan. Join us as we talk about the state of belonging work ? what it is, what?s working, and what?s not working. This is a conversation about the tough work that I believe is at the heart of courageous leadership. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

We have two Dare to Lead favorites back with us today who are really important people to me in terms of my own personal and professional growth: Aiko Bethea and Ruchika Tulshyan. We are digging into the heart of what it means to belong. What are we getting right with DEIB work? What are we still not doing well? I think this work is actually the core of real leadership, of daring leadership. It?s not an add-on. It?s the heart, it?s the lifeblood, it?s the marrow. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

I think y?all know that I?m a fifth-generation Texan, and I have another Texan with me today: Beto O?Rourke. He is running for governor of Texas, and early voting starts next week on October 24th, with Election Day coming up on November 8th. But beyond the timeliness of voting, I wanted to connect on the timeliness of brave leadership ? because we really need courageous, real, authentic, empathic leaders right now. So I wanted to have him on the podcast to learn a little bit more about his approach, his vision, and what he wants for us in our state. And, you know, if you?re not in Texas, there?s a saying, ?As Texas goes, so goes the nation.? I think you?ll find this interesting. Whether you agree or disagree with Beto?s position on things, I think he?s a strong leader with a different approach ? and I love the authenticity. I think you?ll find his story and his vision for politics and life in general compelling. We need to be talking to more and more leaders about what their vision is, what their concerns are, who they are as people. You know, we always say on Dare to Lead, who you are is how you lead, and I think we got a really good picture of that in this conversation. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

We?re back for Part 2 of my two-episode conversation with Adam Grant and Simon Sinek. If you haven?t listened to Part 1, I suggest doing that first, because it provides the framework for the three big topics we cover here: (1) quiet quitting ? what it is, what it isn?t, what we think about it; (2) engagement ? how you define it, how you foster it; and (3) boundaries ? not just setting them, but also respecting them. We all come at things from different perspectives and different experiences, but I really consider both of these guys friends and mentors, and I respect and admire their work. I took so many notes ? they challenged me to rethink some things, and I?m still processing others. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What?s happening in the workplace right now? In this first of two episodes with Adam Grant and Simon Sinek, we talk about what we are seeing in organizations across the world ? and there are definitely some trends that emerge. And so much learning. We talk about disconnects between what we know from data and what we?re seeing practiced. We also talk about what high performers actually look like and the most meaningful way to succeed. Connecting with these two is the regularly scheduled gut check that I need. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

We?re back with the second part of a two-part series with Erika James, PhD, and Lynn Perry Wooten, PhD, about their new book, The Prepared Leader: Emerge from Any Crisis More Resilient Than Before. In Part 1, we talked about what leaders can do today to prepare for what?s next, and in this episode, we dig into more tactical strategies. I have to say that I have lived this work, and this is real. It is not theoretical. This is about what it means to be human and look for grace and make very tough decisions while leading through a crisis. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

It?s the first of a two-part series with Erika James, PhD, and Lynn Perry Wooten, PhD, about their new book, The Prepared Leader: Emerge from Any Crisis More Resilient Than Before. It?s completely tactical and has taught me so much about leading in a crisis ? and unfortunately, we have not seen our last crisis. We talk about what leaders can do today to prepare for what?s next, as they add a fourth ?p? to the triple bottom line framework (people, planet, and profit) for measuring a business?s performance ? and that?s ?preparedness.? Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Three weeks ago, our whole company gathered together in our offices for the first time since early March 2020. In this episode, Barrett and I reflect on how it felt to be together, what surprised us, what shifted for us, and what we?ve learned so far as our team has begun to work in the same space again for the first time in more than two years. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

I?m talking with Kam Franklin, singer-songwriter, music producer, activist, writer, and lead singer of the Gulf Coast soul band The Suffers. You know their kick-ass song ?Take Me to the Good Times? from the Dare to Lead podcast. Kam and I talk about what it means to lead a creative team and what it means to set audacious goals, to fall and fail, and the power of getting back up. Kam explains the daily conflict that bubbles up in the creative process and how normalizing that conflict helps us get to the creative magic. The joy, the expansiveness, and the soul of The Suffers are inextricably connected to the inclusivity, representation, and diversity of the band. Kam seems to never forget that joy as she leads, and it comes through in this conversation. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

If you come across Ruchika Tulshyan?s new book and find yourself dismissively thinking, ?Another DEI book?? you do so at your own peril ? and privilege. Inclusion on Purpose: An Intersectional Approach to Creating a Culture of Belonging at Work is a transformative book. In it, Ruchika, a journalist and inclusion strategist, centers the experience of women of color and provides a framework of intentional actions ? on both the individual and the organizational level ? to neutralize workplace bias and foster environments that are diverse, equitable, and inclusive. As Ruchika says in her book, inclusion is the most important leadership trait today ? and one that can be learned through awareness, intention, and regular practice. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

I am talking to Dr. Linda Hill, a researcher, professor of business administration, and chair of the Leadership Initiative at Harvard Business School. She is regarded as one of the top experts on leadership and innovation, and she has done a new study on how to lead in the digital era. We talk about her findings and what leaders are wrestling with today, the qualities of a digitally mature organization, and why digital transformation is less about technology and more about people. We also talk about leading for innovation rather than leading for change. Our organization is definitely experiencing so much of this transformation, and this conversation was so clarifying as we move forward and lead with purpose. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

I?m talking with Scott Sonenshein, a researcher, organizational psychologist, and New York Times bestselling author, about the pandemic, the racial reckoning, and work ? specifically, what it means for people going to the office for the first time, or staying hybrid, or working from home. We will never be the same again after what we?ve experienced over the past couple of years, and it?s time we talk about how we?re going to rebuild moving forward. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Barrett and I have not been able to stop thinking ? and talking ? about an episode we did a few weeks ago with Donald Sull and Charlie Sull of CultureX: ?How Toxic Work Cultures Are Driving the Great Resignation.? In that episode, we took a deep dive into an MIT Sloan Management Review article the Sulls had recently written, about what was driving the Great Resignation. In sharing their findings, they also gave us a sneak peek at a second article they had in the works, about the attributes of a toxic culture. That article has now been published, so in this episode, Barrett and I are digging into the research and talking about the five attributes of a toxic culture. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This is a conversation about how a simple act of generosity can put someone on a new, groundbreaking course. I?m talking with James Rhee ? acclaimed impact leader, entrepreneur, educator, investor, and goodwill strategist ? about why kindness matters. He leads with a powerful combination of kindness and math and demonstrates how revenue doesn?t define our lives. We unpack the power of goodwill ? which is actually an accounting term ? and how it affects many other things that we need to be thinking about. He also shares a number of tools, lenses, and music we should be considering as we define what success looks like for us and our organizations. This conversation was an infusion of hope and possibility for me about the power of what we can be. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

I want you to pay attention and direct your flashlight right on this podcast ? you?ll understand what that means after you listen to this episode. I?m talking to Dr. Amishi Jha, a neuroscientist and the author of the bestseller Peak Mind, about attention, focus, concentration, and mindfulness ? specifically how mindfulness can literally change our levels of attention. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

I?m talking with Dr. Donald Sull and Charlie Sull about an article I came across in the MIT Sloan Management Review titled ?Toxic Culture Is Driving the Great Resignation.? As we know, between April and September of 2021, more than 24 million American employees left their jobs, an all-time record. Donald and Charlie researched what?s driving the Great Resignation. It is both revealing and confirming to hear how their research connects with the work that we do with Dare to Lead, and it is exactly what we?re seeing in companies all over the world. We dig deep into the definition of toxic culture, how it shows up, and what it costs individuals and companies. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

I?m talking to Megan Reitz, a professor of leadership and dialogue, and John Higgins, a researcher and author, about an article they published in the MIT Sloan Management Review titled ?Leading in an Age of Employee Activism.? It?s a huge topic in every organization I talk to, and I can say, as an employer and an activist ? leading a team filled with organizers and activists ? that this is definitely an important issue. We talk about what it takes to make a difference, to do the internal work, and to give leaders the skills to lead with advocacy in the modern workplace. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices