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The Ezra Klein Show

The Ezra Klein Show

*** Named a best podcast of 2021 by Time, Vulture, Esquire and The Atlantic. *** Each Tuesday and Friday, Ezra Klein invites you into a conversation on something that matters. How do we address climate change if the political system fails to act? Has the logic of markets infiltrated too many aspects of our lives? What is the future of the Republican Party? What do psychedelics teach us about consciousness? What does sci-fi understand about our present that we miss? Can our food system be just to humans and animals alike?

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There?s Been a Massive Change in Where American Policy Gets Made

Since 2021, Democrats have controlled the House, the Senate and the presidency, and they?ve used that power to pass consequential legislation, from the American Rescue Plan to the Inflation Reduction Act. That state of affairs was exceptional: In the 50 years between 1970 and 2020, the U.S. House, Senate and presidency were only under unified party control for 14 years. Divided government has become the norm in American politics. And since Republicans won back the House in November, it is about to become the reality once again.

But that doesn?t mean policymaking is going to stop ? far from it. As America?s national politics have become more and more gridlocked in recent decades, many consequential policy decisions have been increasingly pushed down to the state level. The ability to receive a legal abortion or use recreational marijuana; how easy it is to join a union, purchase a firearm or vote in elections; the tax rates we pay and the kind of health insurance we have access to: These decisions are being determined at the state level to an extent not seen since before the civil rights revolution of the mid-twentieth century.

Jake Grumbach is a political scientist at the University of Washington and the author of the book ?Laboratories Against Democracy: How National Parties Transformed State Politics.? In it, Grumbach tracks this shift in policymaking to the states and explores its implications for American politics. Our national mythologies present state government as less polarizing, more accountable to voters and a hedge against anti-democratic forces amassing too much power. But, as Grumbach shows, in an era of national political media, parties and identities, the truth is a lot more complicated.

So this conversation is a guide to the level of government that we tend to pay the least attention to, even as it shapes our lives more than any other.

Mentioned:

Dynamic Democracy by Devin Caughey and Christopher Warshaw

?Does money have a conservative bias? Estimating the causal impact of Citizens United on state legislative preferences? by Anna Harvey and Taylor Mattia

State Capture by Alex Hertel-Fernandez

?From the Bargaining Table to the Ballot Box? by James Feigenbaum, Alexander Hertel-Fernandez and Vanessa Williamson

Paths Out of Dixie by Robert Mickey

?Old Money: Campaign Finance and Gerontocracy in the United States? by Adam Bonica and Jake Grumbach

Book Recommendations:

Fragmented Democracy by Jamila Michener

Private Government by Elizabeth Anderson

Dilla Time by Dan Charnas

Thoughts? Email us at [email protected] (And if you?re reaching out to recommend a guest, please write  ?Guest Suggestion? in the subject line.)

You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of ?The Ezra Klein Show? at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast, and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.

?The Ezra Klein Show? is produced by Emefa Agawu, Annie Galvin, Jeff Geld, Rogé Karma and Kristin Lin. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris and Kate Sinclair. Original music by Isaac Jones. Mixing by Jeff Geld. Audience strategy by Shannon Busta.

2022-12-06
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A Conservative?s Take on the Chaotic State of the Republican Party

Republicans already hold tremendous power in America. They have appointed six of the nine current Supreme Court justices. They have more state trifectas (control of both legislative houses, as well as the governor?s seat) than Democrats. And come 2023, they will also control the House of Representatives.

But there?s a hollowness at the core of the modern G.O.P. It?s hard to identify any clear party leader, coherent policy agenda or concerted electoral strategy. The party didn?t bother putting forward a policy platform before the 2020 election or articulating an alternative policy vision in 2022. It has hardly reckoned with its under-performances in the 2018, 2020, and 2022 elections. At this point, it?s unclear whether there?s any real party structure ? or substrate of ideas ? left at all.

All of which raises the question: What exactly is the Republican Party at this point? What does it believe? What does it want to achieve? Whose lead does it follow? Those questions will need to be answered somehow over the next two years, as Republican politicians compete for their party?s nomination for the 2024 presidential election and Republican House members wield the power of their new majority.

Michael Brendan Dougherty is a senior writer at National Review and a nonresident fellow at the American Enterprise Institute. We disagree on plenty, but I find him to be one of the sharpest observers of the contemporary Republican Party. So I invited him on the show for an inside-the-tent conversation on the chaotic state of the current G.O.P. and the choices it will have to make over the next two years.

We discuss how the party is processing the 2022 midterms, why Dougherty thinks Donald Trump has a very good chance of winning the Republican nomination again in 2024, whether the G.O.P. leadership actually understands its own voters, how Ron DeSantis rose to become one of the party?s leading 2024 contenders, whether DeSantis ? and the G.O.P. more broadly ? actually have an economic agenda at this point, why Trump?s greatest strength in 2024 could be the economy he presided over in 2018 and 2019, why Dougherty doesn?t think Trump?s political appeal is transferable to anyone else in the Republican Party, what kind of House speaker Kevin McCarthy might be, which Republicans ? other than Trump and DeSantis ? to watch out for, and more.

Mentioned:

?The Question for DeSantis? by Michael Brendan Dougherty

Book Recommendations:

The German War by Nicholas Stargardt

The Demon in Democracy by Ryszard Legutko

The Face of God by Roger Scruton

Thoughts? Email us at [email protected] (And if you?re reaching out to recommend a guest, please write  ?Guest Suggestion? in the subject line.)

You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of ?The Ezra Klein Show? at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast, and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.

?The Ezra Klein Show? is produced by Emefa Agawu, Annie Galvin, Jeff Geld, Rogé Karma and Kristin Lin. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris, Mary Marge Locker, and Kate Sinclair. Original music by Isaac Jones. Mixing by Jeff Geld. Audience strategy by Shannon Busta.

2022-12-02
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The Hidden Costs of Cheap Meat

About 50 years ago, beef cost more than $7 a pound in today?s dollars. Today, despite high inflation, beef is down to about $4.80 a pound, and chicken is just around $1.80 a pound. But those low prices hide the true costs of the meat we consume ? costs that the meat and poultry industries have quietly offloaded onto not only the animals we consume but us humans, too.

Animal agriculture is responsible for at least 14.5 percent of total greenhouse gas emissions, with some estimates as high as 28 percent. It uses half the earth?s habitable land. Factory farms pose huge threats as potential sources of antibiotic resistance and future pandemics. And the current meat production system loads farmers with often insurmountable levels of debt. Our meat may look cheap at the grocery store, but we are all picking up the tab in ways we?re often starkly unaware of.

Leah Garcés is the chief executive and president of Mercy for Animals and the author of ?Grilled: Turning Adversaries Into Allies to Change the Chicken Industry.? Few animal rights activists have her breadth of experience: For years, she?s been steeped in the experiences of farmers who raise animals, communities that live alongside industrial animal operations and, of course, the farmed animals that live shorter and more miserable lives. So I invited her on the show for a conversation about what meat really costs and how that perspective could help us build a healthier relationship to the animals we eat and the world we inhabit.

We discuss what it?s like to live next to a hog farm, factory farming?s role in growing antibiotic resistance, how the current system of contract farming saddles individual farmers with debt, the lengths the U.S. government ? and taxpayers ? goes to to subsidize industrial animal farming, the possibility that the next pandemic will emerge from a crowded factory farm, how high costs ? like deforestation in the Amazon ? are hidden from consumers at the grocery store, the challenge of helping children make sense of routinized cruelty, whether regenerative agriculture can help undo the damage done by industrial animal farming, the historic animal welfare case currently in front of the Supreme Court and more.

Mentioned:

Mercy for Animals

?Sen. Cory Booker has a plan to stop taxpayer bailouts of Big Meat? by Marina Bolotnikova and Kenny Torrella

Book Recommendations:

Wastelands by Corban Addison

Meatonomics by David Robinson Simon

Animal Machines by Ruth Harrison

Thoughts? Email us at [email protected] (And if you?re reaching out to recommend a guest, please write  ?Guest Suggestion? in the subject line.)

You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of ?The Ezra Klein Show? at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast, and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.

?The Ezra Klein Show? is produced by Emefa Agawu, Annie Galvin, Jeff Geld and Rogé Karma. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris, Mary Marge Locker and Kate Sinclair. Original music by Isaac Jones. Mixing by Isaac Jones. Mixing by Jeff Geld, Sonia Herrero, and Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Shannon Busta. Special thanks to Kristin Lin, Kristina Samulewski, Leah Douglas and Evi Steyer.

2022-11-29
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This Conversation About the 'Reading Mind' Is a Gift

Every day, we consume a mind-boggling amount of information. We scan online news articles, sift through text messages and emails, scroll through our social-media feeds ? and that?s usually before we even get out of bed in the morning. In 2009, a team of researchers found that the average American consumed about 34 gigabytes of information a day. Undoubtedly, that number would be even higher today.

But what are we actually getting from this huge influx of information? How is it affecting our memories, our attention spans, our ability to think? What might this mean for today?s children, and future generations? And what does it take to read ? and think ? deeply in a world so flooded with constant input?

Maryanne Wolf is a researcher and scholar at U.C.L.A.?s School of Education and Information Studies. Her books ?Proust and the Squid: The Story and Science of the Reading Brain? and ?Reader, Come Home: The Reading Brain in a Digital World? explore the relationship between the process of reading and the neuroscience of the brain. And, in Wolfe?s view, our era of information overload represents a historical inflection point where our ability to read ? truly, deeply read, not just scan or scroll ? hangs in the balance.

We discuss why reading is a fundamentally ?unnatural? act, how scanning and scrolling differ from ?deep reading,? why it?s not accurate to say that ?reading? is just one thing, how our brains process information differently when we?re reading on a Kindle or a laptop as opposed to a physical book, how exposure to such an abundance of information is rewiring our brains and reshaping our society, how to rediscover the lost art of reading books deeply, what Wolf recommends to those of us who struggle against digital distractions, what parents can do to to protect their children?s attention, how Wolf?s theory of a ?biliterate brain? may save our species? ability to deeply process language and information and more.

Mentioned:

The Glass Bead Game (Magister Ludi) by Hermann Hesse

How We Read Now by Naomi S. Baron

The Shallows by Nicholas Carr

Yiruma

Book Recommendations:

The Gilead Novels by Marilynne Robinson

World and Town by Gish Jen

Standing by Words by Wendell Berry

Love?s Mind by John S. Dunne

Middlemarch by George Eliot

Thoughts? Email us at [email protected] (And if you?re reaching out to recommend a guest, please write  ?Guest Suggestion? in the subject line.)

You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of ?The Ezra Klein Show? at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast, and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.

2022-11-22
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Bill McKibben on the Power That Could Save the Planet

The fight against climate change is at a crossroads.

This past year, the climate movement in the United States achieved significant success. The recently passed Inflation Reduction Act represents the single largest investment in emissions reduction in U.S. history. More than a dozen states have taken some form of climate action in 2022 alone. Earlier this year, California ? which, if it were a country, would have the fifth largest economy in the world ? approved a record $54 billion in climate spending alongside sweeping new restrictions on fossil fuel development. These investments coincide with a wave of technological transformation: Over the past decade, the cost of solar energy has declined around 90 percent and that of onshore wind around 70 percent, making these energy sources economically competitive with fossil fuels for the first time.

?The new numbers turn the economic logic we?re used to upside down,? writes the climate activist and journalist Bill McKibben. To him, the import of this moment is clear: For the first time, McKibben argues, humanity has at our fingertips the tools needed to end humanity?s millenniums-long dependence on burning things for energy ? and to save our climate in the process.

To those familiar with the climate movement, McKibben is a familiar name. His book ?The End of Nature? has been compared to Rachel Carson?s ?Silent Spring? in terms of its impact on the climate movement. He?s founded organizations like Third Act and 350.org, the latter of which is among the largest climate activist organizations in the world today. He was a key leader in the fight to block the Keystone XL pipeline. And he currently writes the influential newsletter ?The Crucial Years.? Ask anyone in the climate movement today about their inspirations and McKibben will almost certainly top the list.

But in McKibben?s telling, the climate movement?s successes in getting us to this point actually require it to change. A movement founded on blocking bad things from happening now needs to turn to building at intensified speed; a movement that has long fought to preserve the natural world now has to help usher in a wholesale transformation of the global landscape; a movement that has long been critical of capitalism and economic growth now has to align itself with those forces in order to achieve its ends.

Those shifts will require new tactics, new animating ideas, new motivations and new priorities ? with the future of the climate hanging in the balance. So I wanted to have McKibben on the show to talk about this dawning era of the climate fight we?re entering, and what changes the movement will have to make to meet this moment.

Mentioned:

?The Single Best Guide to Decarbonization I?ve Heard? by The Ezra Klein Show

Book Recommendations:

New York 2140 by Kim Stanley Robinson

Orwell?s Roses by Rebecca Solnit

How It Went by Wendell Berry

Thoughts? Email us at [email protected] (And if you?re reaching out to recommend a guest, please write  ?Guest Suggestion? in the subject line.)

You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of ?The Ezra Klein Show? at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast, and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.

2022-11-15
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I Don?t Quite Buy the DeSantis Narrative, and Other Midterm Thoughts

The results of Tuesday?s midterm elections are still trickling in, but the broader story is clear: The red wave that many anticipated never materialized. Republicans gained 54 House seats against Bill Clinton in 1994 and 63 seats against Barack Obama in 2010. It doesn?t look as though the G.O.P. will secure anything close to that in 2022, and Democrats could retain their narrow control of the Senate ? all against the backdrop of raging inflation and low approval ratings for President Biden.

Why didn?t Democrats get wiped out? Why did so many Republicans underperform while others, like Gov. Ron DeSantis of Florida, won decisively? And what does it all imply for 2024?

To talk through the midterm results and their implications, I am joined by my column?s editor, Aaron Retica. We discuss why this election ended up being so shockingly close; how Democrats? performance could, paradoxically, make it harder for Biden to win in 2024; why the significance of DeSantis?s victory is probably being overhyped; why inflation didn?t seem to matter nearly as much to the elections? outcomes as most analysts believed it would; how a possible DeSantis-Donald Trump fight in the 2024 Republican primaries could create electoral space for more traditional Republicans to break through; John Fetterman?s distinct working-class appeal in Pennsylvania, the moral calculus of Democrats? decision to bolster extreme Republican candidates in the primaries; the uncertain future of American democracy and more.

(Note: This episode was recorded on the afternoon of Wednesday, Nov. 9.)

Mentioned:

The Bitter End by John Sides, Chris Tausanovitch and Lynn Vavreck

?Hillary Clinton Accepted Her Loss, but a Lot Has Changed Since 2016? by Lynn Vavreck

?Republicans Have Made It Very Clear What They Want to Do if They Win Congress? by Ezra Klein

"What It Means to Be Kind in a Cruel World" by The Ezra Klein Show

Podcast Recommendations:

The Prince: Searching for Xi Jinping (The Economist)

Odd Lots (Bloomberg)

Volts (David Roberts)

EKS Episode Recommendations:

?These Political Scientists Surveyed 500,000 Voters. Here Are Their Unnerving Conclusions.? by The Ezra Klein Show

?A Powerful Theory of Why The Far Right is Thriving Across the Globe? by The Ezra Klein Show

?Donald Trump Didn?t Hijack the G.O.P. He Understood It.? by The Ezra Klein Show

Aaron's essay recommendation:

"The Paranoid Style in American Politics" by Richard Hofstadter

Thoughts? Email us at [email protected] (And if you?re reaching out to recommend a guest, please write  ?Guest Suggestion? in the subject line.)

You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of ?The Ezra Klein Show? at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast, and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.

?The Ezra Klein Show? is produced by Emefa Agawu, Annie Galvin, Jeff Geld and Rogé Karma. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris, Rollin Hu, Kristin Lin and Kate Sinclair. Original music by Isaac Jones. Mixing by Jeff Geld and Sonia Herrero. Audience strategy by Shannon Busta. Special thanks to Kristin Lin and Kristina Samulewski.

2022-11-10
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George Saunders on the ?Braindead Megaphone? That Makes Our Politics So Awful

George Saunders is regarded as one of our greatest living fiction writers. He won the Booker Prize in 2017 for his novel ?Lincoln in the Bardo? and has published numerous short-story collections to wide acclaim, including his most recent book, ?Liberation Day.? He also happens to be one of my favorite people to read and to talk to.

Saunders is an incredibly prescient and sharp observer of American political culture. Way back in 2007, he argued that our media environment was transforming politics into a competition within which the loudest voices would command the most attention and set the agenda for everyone else. With the rise of social media ? and the advent of the Trump era ? that observation has been more than vindicated. So as we approach the midterm elections, I wanted to have Saunders back on the show to talk about how politics and media have changed, and how those changes are shaping the way we interact, communicate and even think.

We discuss how Twitter takes advantage of ? even warps ? our ?malleable? selves, how politicians like Marjorie Taylor Greene strategically manipulate our attentional environments, how Barack Obama leveraged our human desire to be seen as our best selves, whether discipline or gentleness is more effective in helping others grow, what options we have to resist anti-democratic tendencies in our politics, whether a post-scarcity future ? with jobs for everyone ? would leave us more or less satisfied, how the greatest evils can be committed by those trying to care for their loved ones, what attending Trump rallies taught Saunders about political violence and more.

Mentioned:

The Braindead Megaphone by George Saunders

?Host? by David Foster Wallace

?The Semplica-Girl Diaries? by George Saunders

Bullshit Jobs by David Graeber

?What It Means to Be Kind in a Cruel World? by The Ezra Klein Show

?I Didn?t Want It to Be True, but the Medium Really Is the Message? by Ezra Klein

Book Recommendations:

The Storm Is Here by Luke Mogelson

Sugar Street by Jonathan Dee

Marlena by Julie Buntin

Thoughts? Email us at [email protected] (And if you?re reaching out to recommend a guest, please write  ?Guest Suggestion? in the subject line.)

You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of ?The Ezra Klein Show? at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast, and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.

?The Ezra Klein Show? is produced by Emefa Agawu, Annie Galvin, Jeff Geld and Rogé Karma. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris and Mary Marge Locker. Original music by Isaac Jones. Mixing by Jeff Geld. Audience strategy by Shannon Busta. Special thanks to Kristin Lin and Kristina Samulewski.

2022-11-08
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Inflation Does More Than Raise Prices. It Destroys Governments.

?One can usually pretend that there is a logic to the distribution of wealth ? that behind a person?s prosperity lies some rational basis, whether it is that person?s hard work, skill and farsightedness or some ancestor?s,? writes J. Bradford DeLong. ?Inflation ? even moderate inflation ? strips the mask.?

DeLong is an economic historian at the University of California, Berkeley, a former deputy assistant secretary of the Treasury and the author of ?Slouching Towards Utopia? ? a new book about the wave of economic growth that transformed the world in the 20th century. In it, he argues, among other things, that inflation isn?t just economically damaging; it?s one of the most destabilizing, destructive forces in all of politics. Left unchecked, it has the power to swing elections, erode the foundations of core social institutions and usher in wholesale changes in political and economic regimes.

That?s exactly what happened the last time inflation was this high. In DeLong?s telling, the inflation crisis of the 1970s was weaponized to discredit the reigning New Deal economic order and helped give rise to the small government, pro-market political turn of the 1980s ? the consequences of which we are living with today. So I wanted to have DeLong on the show to walk me through that story and some of the questions it raises: Why is inflation is so uniquely politically destructive? What are the right ? and wrong ? lessons to take from the experience of the 1970s? What kinds of political transformations could today?s inflation could bring about?

We also discuss why inflation spiraled out of control in the 1970s (and whether it could have been stopped sooner), the efficacy of price controls as a way of taming inflation, why DeLong believes it?s a mistake to take the 1970s comparisons too literally, how unchecked inflation can decimate social trust, how economic thinking became obsessed with ?moochers? and ?slackers? in the 1980s and ?90s, whether the 2007-08 financial crisis brought an end to the neoliberal era, what DeLong would say to his younger self serving in the early Clinton administration and more.

Book Recommendations:

The Rise and Fall of the Neoliberal Order by Gary Gestle

Free Market by Jacob Soll

Adam Smith?s America by Glory M. Liu

Thoughts? Email us at [email protected] (And if you're reaching out to recommend a guest, please write  ?Guest Suggestion" in the subject line.)

You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of ?The Ezra Klein Show? at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast, and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.

?The Ezra Klein Show? is produced by Emefa Agawu, Annie Galvin, Jeff Geld and Rogé Karma. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris, Rollin Hu, Mary Marge Locker and Kate Sinclair. Original music by Isaac Jones. Mixing by Jeff Geld and Sonia Hererro. Audience strategy by Shannon Busta. Special thanks to Kristin Lin and Kristina Samulewski.

2022-11-04
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A Powerful Theory of Why the Far Right Is Thriving Across the Globe

As we approach the 2022 midterms, the outlook for American democracy doesn?t appear promising. An increasingly Trumpist, anti-democratic Republican Party is poised to take over at least one chamber of Congress. And the Democratic Party, facing an inflationary economy and with an unpopular president in office, looks helpless to stop them.

But the United States isn?t alone in this regard. Over the course of 2022, Italy elected a far-right prime minister from a party with Fascist roots, a party founded by neo-Nazis and skinheads won the second-highest number of seats in Sweden?s Parliament, Viktor Orban?s Fidesz party in Hungary won its fourth consecutive election by a landslide, Marine Le Pen won 41 percent of the vote in the final round of France?s presidential elections and ? just this past weekend ? Jair Bolsonaro came dangerously close to winning re-election in Brazil.

Why are these populist uprisings happening simultaneously, in countries with such diverse cultures, economies and political systems?

Pippa Norris is a political scientist at Harvard?s Kennedy School of Government, where she has taught for three decades. In that time, she?s written dozens of books on topics ranging from comparative political institutions to right-wing parties and the decline of religion. And in 2019 she and Ronald Inglehart published ?Cultural Backlash: Trump, Brexit and Authoritarian Populism,? which gives the best explanation of the far right?s rise that I?ve read.

We discuss what Norris calls the ?silent revolution in cultural values? that has occurred across advanced democracies in recent decades, why the best predictor of support for populist parties is the generation people were born into, why the ?transgressive aesthetic? of leaders like Donald Trump and Jair Bolsonaro is so central to their appeal, how demographic and cultural ?tipping points? have produced conservative backlashes across the globe, the difference between ?demand-side? and ?supply-side? theories of populist uprising, the role that economic anxiety and insecurity play in fueling right-wing backlashes, why delivering economic benefits might not be enough for mainstream leaders to stave off populist challenges and more.

Mentioned:

Sacred and Secular by Pippa Norris and Ronald Inglehart

?Exploring drivers of vote choice and policy positions among the American electorate?

Book Recommendations:

Popular Dictatorships by Aleksandar Matovski

Spin Dictators by Sergei Guriev and Daniel Treisman

The Origins of Totalitarianism by Hannah Arendt

Thoughts? Email us at [email protected] (And if you're reaching out to recommend a guest, please write  ?Guest Suggestion" in the subject line.)

You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of ?The Ezra Klein Show? at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast, and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.

?The Ezra Klein Show? is produced by Emefa Agawu, Annie Galvin, Jeff Geld and Rogé Karma. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris, Mary Marge Locker and Kate Sinclair. Original music by Isaac Jones. Mixing by Jeff Geld. Audience strategy by Shannon Busta. Special thanks to Kristin Lin and Kristina Samulewski.

2022-11-01
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These Political Scientists Surveyed 500,000 Voters. Here Are Their Unnerving Conclusions.

How does the popularity of a president?s policies impact his or her party?s electoral chances? Why have Latinos ? and other voters of color ? swung toward the Republican Party in recent years? How does the state of the economy influence how people vote, and which economic metrics in particular matter most?

We can?t answer those questions yet for 2022. But we can look at previous elections for insights into how things could play out.

John Sides and Lynn Vavreck ? political scientists at Vanderbilt and U.C.L.A., respectively ? have routinely written some of the most comprehensive analyses of American presidential contests. Their new book, ?The Bitter End: The 2020 Presidential Campaign and the Challenge to American Democracy? ? written with Chris Tausanovitch ? is no exception. The book?s findings are built on top of numerous layers of data and analysis, including a massive survey project that involved interviewing around 500,000 Americans between July 2019 and January 2021.

We discuss the core questions of 2020: How did Donald Trump come so close to winning? Why did Latinos swing toward Republicans? What role did Black Lives Matter protests have on the outcome? How did the strange Covid economy of 2020 affect the election results? And of course, what does all of this portend for the midterm elections in November?

Mentioned:

?Polarization and State Legislative Elections? by Cassandra Handan-Nader, Andrew C. W. Myers and Andrew B. Hall

Identity Crisis by John Sides, Michael Tesler and Lynn Vavreck

?Losers? Consent? by Christopher J. Anderson, André Blais, Shaun Bowler, Todd Donovan and Ola Listhaug

Book Recommendations:

The Increasingly United States by Daniel J. Hopkins

Groundbreakers by Elizabeth McKenna and Hahrie Han

The Loud Minority by Daniel Q. Gillion

Rock Me on the Water by Ronald Brownstein

State of Terror by Hillary Rodham Clinton and Louise Penny

?Bono Is Still Trying to Figure Out U2 and Himself? by David Marchese

Thoughts? Email us at [email protected] (And if you're reaching out to recommend a guest, please write  ?Guest Suggestion" in the subject line.)

You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of ?The Ezra Klein Show? at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast, and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.

?The Ezra Klein Show? is produced by Emefa Agawu, Annie Galvin, Jeff Geld and Rogé Karma. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris and Kate Sinclair. Original music by Isaac Jones. Mixing by Jeff Geld. Audience strategy by Shannon Busta. Special thanks to Kristin Lin and Kristina Samulewski.

2022-10-28
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A Step-by-Step Guide to Becoming a Trump Enabler

???What would you do for your relevance?? the political journalist Mark Leibovich asks in his new book, ?Thank You for Your Servitude: Donald Trump?s Washington and the Price of Submission.? ?How badly did you want into the clubhouse, no matter how wretched it became inside?? For Leibovich, you can?t truly understand the current Republican Party without taking stock of the almost Shakespearean drama that unfolded during the Trump presidency ? in which Republican after Republican bowed to the will of their ascendant party leader.

Through his extensive ? and often quite colorful ? reporting with Trump?s inner circle of enablers, Leibovich tries to understand the motivations that fueled Trump?s takeover of the G.O.P. But this conversation isn?t only important in retrospect. With the Republican Party poised to possibly recapture at least one house of Congress in November, many of Trump?s core enablers could soon hold considerable political power. Who are they? What do they believe? How will they act if given power?

We discuss why the stakes in 2022 midterms feel higher than ever, why the Republican Party has changed so profoundly since the days of Paul Ryan and Eric Cantor, how the governing structure of the G.O.P. fell apart as Trump rose in influence, the many reasons politicians from Lindsey Graham to Elise Stefanik converted from Trump skeptics to staunch Trump defenders, the political motivations of Kevin McCarthy ? who may become the next speaker of the House ? and how he might wield power, how the persistence of Trumpism could profoundly alter American democracy, why Leibovich believes figures like J.D. Vance prostrated themselves to a man who insulted them, what options Democrats have for countering election denialism and more.

Mentioned:

?Donald Trump Is Not Going Anywhere? by Mark Leibovich

Book recommendations:

Why We Did It by Tim Miller

Confidence Man by Maggie Haberman

NSFW by Isabel Kaplan

Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at [email protected]

You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of ?The Ezra Klein Show? at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast, and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.

?The Ezra Klein Show? is produced by Emefa Agawu, Annie Galvin, Jeff Geld and Rogé Karma. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris, Mary Marge Locker and Kate Sinclair. Original music by Isaac Jones. Mixing by Jeff Geld, Sonia Herrero and Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Shannon Busta. Special thanks to Kristin Lin and Kristina Samulewski.

2022-10-25
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There?s Been a ?Regime Change? in How Democrats Think About Elections

According to the conventional rules of politics, Democrats should be on track for electoral disaster this November. Joe Biden?s approval rating is stuck around 42 percent, inflation is still sky-high and midterms usually swing against the incumbent president?s party ? a recipe for the kind of political wipeouts we saw in 2018, 2010 and 1994.

But that?s not what the polls show. Currently, Democrats are on track to hold the Senate and lose narrowly in the House, which raises all kinds of questions: Why are Republicans failing to capitalize on such a favorable set of circumstances? How did Democrats get themselves into this situation ? and can they get out of it? And should we even trust the polls giving us this information in the first place?

Matt Yglesias is a veteran journalist who writes the newsletter ?Slow Boring? and co-hosts the podcast ?Bad Takes.? And in recent years he?s become an outspoken critic of the Democratic Party?s political strategy: how Democrats communicate with the public, what they choose as their governing priorities and whom they ultimately listen to. In Yglesias?s view, Democrats have lost touch with the very voters they need to win close elections like this one, and should embrace a very different approach to politics if they want to defeat an increasingly anti-democratic G.O.P.

We discuss why Yglesias thinks the 2022 polls are likely biased toward Democrats, how Republicans? bizarre nominee choices are giving Democrats a fighting chance of winning the Senate, why Biden?s popular legislative agenda hasn?t translated into greater public support, the Biden administration?s ?grab bag? approach to policymaking, why Yglesias thinks there?s been a ?regime change? in how Democrats think about elections, how social media has transformed both parties? political incentives, what the Democratic agenda should look like if the party retains both houses of Congress and more.

Book recommendations:

Famine: A Short History by Cormac Ó Gráda

Slouching Towards Utopia by J. Bradford DeLong

Strangers to Ourselves by Rachel Aviv

Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at [email protected]

You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of ?The Ezra Klein Show? at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast, and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.

?The Ezra Klein Show? is produced by Emefa Agawu, Annie Galvin, Jeff Geld and Rogé Karma. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris, Mary Marge Locker and Kate Sinclair. Original music by Isaac Jones. Mixing by Jeff Geld, Sonia Herrero and Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Shannon Busta. Special thanks to Kristin Lin and Kristina Samulewski.

2022-10-21
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A Legendary World-Builder on Multiverses, Revolution and the ?Souls? of Cities

N.K. Jemisin is a fantasy and science-fiction writer who won three consecutive Hugo Awards ? considered the highest honor in science-fiction writing ? for her ?Broken Earth? trilogy; she has since won two more Hugos, as well as other awards. But in imagining wild fictional narratives, the beloved sci-fi and fantasy writer has also cultivated a remarkable view of our all-too-real world. In her fiction, Jemisin crafts worlds that resemble ours but get disrupted by major shocks: ecological disasters, invasions by strange, tentacled creatures and more ? all of which operate as thought experiments that can help us think through how human beings could and should respond to similar calamities.

Jemisin?s latest series, which includes ?The City We Became? and ?The World We Make,? takes place in a recognizable version of New York City ? the texture of its streets, the distinct character of its five boroughs ? that?s also gripped by strange, magical forces. The series, in addition to being a rollicking read, is essentially a meditation on cities: how they come into being, how their very souls get threatened by forces like systemic racism and astronomical inequality and how their energies and cultures have the power to rescue and save those souls.

I invited Jemisin on the show to help me take stock of the political and cultural ferment behind these distressing conditions ? and also to remember the magical qualities of cities, systems and human nature. We discuss why multiverse fictions like ?Everything Everywhere All at Once? are so popular now, how the culture and politics of New York and San Francisco have homogenized drastically in recent decades, Jemisin?s views on why a coalition of Black and Latinx voters elected a former cop as New York?s mayor, how gentrification causes change that we may not at first recognize, where to draw the line between imposing order and celebrating the disorder of cities, how Donald Trump kept stealing Jemisin?s ideas but is at the root a ?badly written character,? whether we should hold people accountable for their choices or acknowledge the way the status quo shapes our decision-making, what excites Jemisin about recent discoveries about outer space, why she thinks we are all ?made of exploding stars? and more.

Mentioned:

N.K. Jemisin interview on Vox?s "The Gray Area with Sean Illing"

Book recommendations:

Fullmetal Alchemist by Hiromu Arakawa

Mechanique by Genevieve Valentine

Witch King by Martha Wells

The Death and Life of Great American Cities by Jane Jacobs

Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at [email protected]

You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of ?The Ezra Klein Show? at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast, and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.

?The Ezra Klein Show? is produced by Annie Galvin, Jeff Geld and Rogé Karma. Our researcher is Emefa Agawu. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris and Mary Marge Locker. Original music by Isaac Jones. Mixing by Jeff Geld and Sonia Herrero. Audience strategy by Shannon Busta. Special thanks to Kristin Lin, Kristina Samulewski and Jesse Bordwin.

2022-10-18
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What Rachel Maddow Has Been Thinking About Offscreen

?The Rachel Maddow Show? debuted in the interregnum between political eras. Before it lay the 9/11 era and the George W. Bush presidency. Days after the show launched in 2008, Lehman Brothers collapsed, and a few weeks later Barack Obama was elected president.

And then history just kept speeding up. The Tea Party. The debt ceiling debacles. Donald Trump. The coronavirus pandemic. January 6th. The big lie. Maddow covered and tried to make sense of it all. Now, after 14 years, she has taken her show down to one episode a week and is beginning other projects ? like ?Ultra,? the history podcast we discuss in this episode.

But I wanted to talk to Maddow about how American politics and media has changed over the course of her show. We discuss the legacies of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, the cycle of economic crises we appear to keep having, Maddow?s relationships with Pat Buchanan and Tucker Carlson, where the current G.O.P.?s anti-democracy efforts really started, how Obama?s presidency changed politics, how Maddow finds and chooses her stories, the statehouse Republicans who tilled the soil for Trump?s big lie and more.

Book Recommendations:

Hitler in Los Angeles by Steven J. Ross

Nazis of Copley Square by Charles R. Gallagher

Hitler?s American Friends by Bradley W. Hart

The Oppermanns by Lion Feuchtwanger

1940 by Susan Dunn

Down in New Orleans Billy Sothern

Thoughts? Email us at [email protected] (And if you're reaching out to recommend a guest, please write  ?Guest Suggestion" in the subject line.)

You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of ?The Ezra Klein Show? at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast, and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.

?The Ezra Klein Show? is produced by Annie Galvin, Jeff Geld and Rogé Karma. Our researcher is Emefa Agawu. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris, Mary Marge Locker and Kate Sinclair. Original music by Isaac Jones. Mixing by Jeff Geld. Audience strategy by Shannon Busta. Special thanks to Kristin Lin and Kristina Samulewski.

2022-10-14
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Hard Fork: Elon?s Hidden Motives + A Meetup in the Metaverse

Today we?re bringing you an episode from the recently launched New York Times podcast, Hard Fork. Hosted by veteran tech journalists Kevin Roose and Casey Newton, Hard Fork is a rigorous and fun exploration of Silicon Valley?s already-emerging future ? and its evolving imprint on the rest of the world.

In this episode, Kevin and Casey discuss Elon Musk?s on-again-off-again ? and recently on-again ? interest in Twitter, as the billionaire signals once again that he?s buying the social media platform. What might be behind the change of heart? And what will the deal mean for employees and users? Casey and Kevin swap theories and predictions ? and also step into the metaverse with the New York Times reporter Kashmir Hill.

Hard Fork is produced by Davis Land. Edited by Paula Szuchman and Hanna Ingber. Fact-checking by Caitlin Love. Original music by Dan Powell, Elisheba Ittoop and Marion Lozano. Engineered by Corey Schreppel. Special thanks to Sam Dolnick, Shannon Busta, Julia Simon, Larissa Anderson, Pui-Wing Tam, Kate LoPresti, Nell Gallogly, Mahima Chablani and Jeffrey Miranda.

You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of ?The Ezra Klein Show? at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast, and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.

2022-10-11
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How the Fed Is ?Shaking the Entire System?

?There are moments when history making creeps up on you,? writes the economic historian Adam Tooze. ?This is one of those moments.?

Countries across the world are raising interest rates at unprecedented speeds. That global monetary tightening is colliding with spiking food and energy prices, financial market instability, high levels of emerging market debt and economies still struggling to recover from the Covid pandemic. Alone, each of these factors would warrant concern; combined, they could be catastrophic.

We?re already beginning to see what happens as these dynamics intersect: Britain just experienced a bond market meltdown that threatened one of the most advanced financial systems in the world. Developing countries like Sri Lanka, Argentina and Pakistan are experiencing political and economic crises. The World Bank believes we could be headed for a severe global recession.

Tooze is the director of the European Institute at Columbia University and the author of multiple histories of financial crises and near crises and of the excellent Chartbook newsletter. He believes this particular confluence of high inflation, rising interest rates and high levels of debt points to an economic ?polycrisis? unlike any the world has seen. And he and others have argued that the U.S. Fed?s decision to raise interest rates is a core driver of that crisis.

So this is a conversation about the fragile, uncertain future of the global economy at this history-making moment and the Fed?s role in it. We discuss what the British financial market meltdown means for the rest of the world, how the interest rate hikes in rich countries export inflation to other countries, the looming possibility of a global recession, why Tooze believes something could break in the global financial system, why countries in South Asia are experiencing a particularly severe form of ?polycrisis,? how the Fed should weigh its mandate to bring down inflation against the global consequences of its actions, why he believes analogies to the American inflationary period of the 1970s are misguided and more.

Mentioned:

?Slouching Towards Utopia by J Bradford DeLong ? fuelling America?s global dream? by Adam Tooze

Book recommendations:

The Neapolitan Novels by Elena Ferrante

Youthquake by Edward Paice

Slouching Towards Utopia by J. Bradford DeLong

Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at [email protected]

You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of ?The Ezra Klein Show? at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast, and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.

?The Ezra Klein Show? is produced by Annie Galvin, Jeff Geld and Rogé Karma. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris, Rollin Hu, Mary Marge Locker and Kate Sinclair. Original music by Isaac Jones. Mixing by Jeff Geld. Audience strategy by Shannon Busta. Special thanks to Kristin Lin, Kristina Samulewski, Jason Furman, Mike Konczal and Maurice Obstfeld.

2022-10-07
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When You Can?t Trust the Stories Your Mind Is Telling

The National Institute of Mental Health estimates that nearly one in five adults in America lives with a mental illness. And we have plenty of evidence ? from suicide rates to the percentage of Americans on psychopharmaceuticals ? that our collective mental health is getting worse. But beyond mental health diagnoses lies a whole, complicated landscape of difficult, often painful, mental states that all of us experience at some point in our lives.

Rachel Aviv is a longtime staff writer at The New Yorker and the author of the new book ?Strangers to Ourselves: Unsettled Minds and the Stories That Make Us.? Aviv has done some of the best reporting toward answering questions like: How do people cope with their changing ? and sometimes truly disturbing ? mental states? What can diagnosis capture, and what does it leave out? Why do treatments succeed or fail for different people? And how do all of us tell stories about ourselves ? and our minds ? that can either trap us in excruciating thought patterns or liberate us?

We discuss why children seeking asylum in Sweden suddenly dropped out mentally and physically from their lives, how mental states like depression and anxiety can be socially contagious, how mental illnesses differ from physical ailments like diabetes and high blood pressure, what Aviv?s own experience with childhood anorexia taught her about psychology and diagnosis, how having too much ?insight? into our mental states can sometimes hurt us, how social forces like racism and classism can activate psychological distress, the complicated decisions people make around taking medication or refusing it, how hallucinations can be confused with ? or might even count as ? a form of spiritual connection, what ?depressive realism? says about the state of our society, how we can care for one another both within and beyond the medical establishment, and more.

This episode contains a brief mention of suicidal ideation. If you are having thoughts of suicide, text 988 to reach the Suicide & Crisis Lifeline. A list of additional resources is available at SpeakingOfSuicide.com/resources.

Mentioned:

?It?s Not Just You,? a series on mental health in America from New York Times Opinion

?The Trauma of Facing Deportation? by Rachel Aviv

Ruth Ozeki on The Ezra Klein Show: ?What We Gain by Enchanting the Objects in Our Lives?

Thomas Insel on The Ezra Klein Show: ?A Top Mental Health Expert on Where America Went Wrong?

Judson Brewer on The Ezra Klein Show: ?That Anxiety You?re Feeling? It?s a Habit You Can Unlearn.?

Book Recommendations:

Madness and Modernism by Louis Sass

Of Two Minds T.M. Luhrmann

?Wants? by Grace Paley

Thoughts? Email us at [email protected] (And if you're reaching out to recommend a guest, please write  ?Guest Suggestion" in the subject line.)

You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of ?The Ezra Klein Show? at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast, and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.

?The Ezra Klein Show? is produced by Annie Galvin and Rogé Karma. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris, Mary Marge Locker and Kate Sinclair. Original music by Isaac Jones. Mixing by Sonia Herrero, Isaac Jones and Carole Sabouraud. Audience strategy by Shannon Busta. Special thanks to Kristin Lin and Kristina Samulewski.

2022-10-04
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Ethereum?s Founder on What Crypto Can ? and Can?t ? Do

When most people hear ?crypto,? the first thing they think of is ?currencies.? Cryptocurrencies have skyrocketed in popularity over the past few years. And they?ve given rise to an entire ecosystem of financial speculation, get rich quick schemes, and in some cases outright fraud.

But there?s another side of crypto that gets less attention: the segment of the community that is interested in the way the technology that powers crypto can decentralize decision making, make institutions more transparent and transform the way organizations are governed. That?s the side I find far more interesting.

There are few individuals as central to that latter segment of crypto as Vitalik Buterin. When he was still just a teenager, Buterin co-founded Ethereum, a decentralized platform whose token Ether is the second most valuable cryptocurrency today, surpassed only by Bitcoin. But the vision behind Ethereum was that the blockchain technology could be used for more than digital money; it could create a sort of digital infrastructure on top of which organizations and companies and applications could be built ? ostensibly free of centralizing structures like banks and governments.

Over the last decade, Buterin has become arguably the core public intellectual on the nonfinancial side of crypto. His new book, ?Proof of Stake,? is a collection of long, thoughtful essays that taken together lay out a vision of crypto as a truly transformative technology ? one with the potential to revolutionize everything from city governance to voting systems to online identity.

I myself have dueling impulses about Buterin?s vision. On the one hand, I believe many of our governing systems and institutions are badly in need of the kind of reimagining he is engaged in. On the other hand, I?m deeply skeptical of whether the issues Buterin and his ilk are focused on are actually technological problems that blockchains can solve. So this is a conversation that sits squarely within that tension.

Mentioned:

Seeing Like a State by James C. Scott

Book recommendations:

The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich by William L. Shirer

Harry Potter and The Methods of Rationality by Eliezer Yudkowsky

Algorithmic Game Theory by Noam Nisan, Tim Roughgarden, Eva Tardos and Vijay V. Vazirani

Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at [email protected]

You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of ?The Ezra Klein Show? at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast, and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.

?The Ezra Klein Show? is produced by Annie Galvin and Rogé Karma. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris, Mary Marge Locker and Kate Sinclair. Original music by Isaac Jones. Mixing by Sonia Herrero, Isaac Jones and Carole Sabouraud. Audience strategy by Shannon Busta. Special thanks to Kristin Lin, Kristina Samulewski, Will Wilkinson, Alex Tabarrok, Glen Weyl and Nathan Schneider.

2022-09-30
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We Know So Little About What Makes Humanity Prosper

Why do some countries produce far more science Nobel laureates than others? Why did Silicon Valley happen in California rather than Japan or Boston? Why did the Industrial Revolution happen when it did and where it did?

These are just some of the questions that have inspired the formation of a new intellectual movement called ?progress studies.? The basic idea is this: For hundreds of thousands of years, human history played out without any rapid, marked advance in material living standards. And then, suddenly, in just the past few hundred years, everything changed: Humanity achieved a truly mind-boggling amount of progress in the evolutionary blink of an eye. In the early 21st century, we are all living in the world that progress bequeathed. And yet we understand shockingly little about what drives that progress in the first place.

That?s important because, at least according to some metrics, progress seems to be slowing down. We spend far more on scientific research but that research results in fewer breakthrough discoveries. Key economic indicators such as productivity growth have slowed. Many have argued that the technologies we?ve invented in recent decades, while highly impressive, aren?t as transformative as the technologies from the last century. All of which means that the questions animating progress studies aren?t mere academic exercises; they are central to understanding how we can bring about a better future for all.

Patrick Collison is the co-founder and chief executive of the multibillion-dollar payments company Stripe. But for years now, Collison has also been developing and advocating a worldview that has become the intellectual backbone of this new discipline. In 2019, Collison, alongside the economist Tyler Cowen,  called for ?a new science of progress.? And since then, an intellectual ecosystem has sprung up around it, full of its own magazines and thinkers and syllabuses and podcasts. And Collison himself is putting its theories into practice through organizations  (like Fast Grants and Arc Institute) that he?s founded and funded.

This conversation is an attempt to better understand Collison?s worldview, and more broadly the worldview of progress studies. The ideas that animate progress studies are worth taking seriously on their own terms. But they are also important because they are becoming increasingly influential among a wealthy elite with the power and resources to shape all of our futures.

Mentioned:

?Science Is Getting Less Bang for Its Buck? by Patrick Collison and Michael Nielsen

A Culture of Growth by Joel Mokyr

"Kludgeocracy in America" by Steve Teles 

Book Recommendations:

Empire and Revolution by Richard Bourke

Scene of Change by Warren Weaver

A Widening Sphere by Philip N. Alexander

Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at [email protected]

You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of ?The Ezra Klein Show? at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast, and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.

?The Ezra Klein Show? is produced by Annie Galvin and Rogé Karma. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris, Mary Marge Locker and Kate Sinclair. Original music by Isaac Jones. Mixing by Sonia Herrero, Isaac Jones and Carole Sabouraud. Audience strategy by Shannon Busta. Special thanks to Kristin Lin and Kristina Samulewski.

2022-09-27
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Why Russia Is Losing the War in Ukraine

When Russia invaded Ukraine in February, the question most analysts were asking was not whether Russia would win. It was how fast. On almost every quantifiable metric from military strength to economic size Russia has decisive advantages over Ukraine. A swift Russian victory appeared inevitable.

Of course, that swift victory didn?t happen. And in recent weeks, the direction of the war has begun to tilt in Ukraine?s direction. On Sept. 6, the Ukrainian military launched a counteroffensive near Kharkiv in northern Ukraine and regained 3,400 square miles of territory in a week ? more territory than Russia had captured in the last five months. Analysts are now saying it?s unlikely that Vladimir Putin can accomplish one of his chief aims: annexing the Donbas by force.

Andrea Kendall-Taylor is the director of the trans-Atlantic security program at the Center for a New American Security. She?s a former intelligence officer who, from 2015 to 2018, led strategic analysis on Russia at the National Intelligence Council. When we spoke, she was recently back from a trip to Ukraine. And she believes that the long-term trends favor a Ukrainian victory.

In this conversation, Kendall-Taylor helps me understand this watershed moment in the war. We discuss why Ukraine?s recent counteroffensive was so significant; how it and other recent developments have hampered Russian morale, manpower and weapons supply; whether sanctions are really influencing Russia?s strategy, and how sanctions might get worse; how this conflict is profoundly changing Europe; whether this recent turn of events signals a possible Ukrainian victory; why ?personalist dictators? like Putin can be so dangerous when backed into a corner; how likely it is that we?ll see stalemate or settlement negotiations in the near future; how Kendall-Taylor rates the likelihood of various outcomes; what we should expect in the next phase of the war and more.

Mentioned:

?Ukraine Holds the Future? by Timothy Snyder

?The Russia-Ukraine War at Six Months? by Adam Tooze

Recommendations:
Stalin: Paradoxes of Power, 1878-1928 by Stephen Kotkin

Twitter Accounts to Follow for Russia-Ukraine War Analysis:

Michael Kofman

Rob Lee

Mick Ryan

The Institute for the Study of War

Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at [email protected]

You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of ?The Ezra Klein Show? at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast, and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.

?The Ezra Klein Show? is produced by Annie Galvin and Rogé Karma. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris, Mary Marge Locker and Kate Sinclair. Original music by Isaac Jones. Mixing by Sonia Herrero, Isaac Jones and Carole Sabouraud. Audience strategy by Shannon Busta. Special thanks to Kristin Lin, Kristina Samulewski and Emma Ashford.

2022-09-23
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The Single Best Guide to Decarbonization I?ve Heard

In August, Joe Biden signed into law the Inflation Reduction Act, which included $392 billion towards a new climate budget ? the single largest investment in emissions reduction in U.S. history. The CHIPS and Science Act and the Bipartisan Infrastructure Act bring that number up to around $450 billion. All of that spending is designed with one major objective in mind: to put the United States on a path to a decarbonized economy, with the goal of reaching net zero emissions by 2050.

Achieving that goal is perhaps the single most important challenge of our age. And so I wanted to dedicate a full episode to it. How big is the task of decarbonizing the U.S. economy? What do we actually need to do to get there? How does the I.R.A. help do that? And what are the biggest obstacles still standing in our way?

Jesse Jenkins is an assistant professor of mechanical and aerospace engineering at Princeton University and leads the Princeton ZERO Lab. He was a lead author of the Net Zero America report, the most comprehensive attempt to map out the different pathways to decarbonization I?ve seen. He also leads the REPEAT Project, which has done some of the most in-depth modeling of how the Inflation Reduction Act and other climate policies could affect emissions.

As a result, this conversation ended up being the single clearest explanation I?ve heard of both the path to decarbonizing America and the impact the Biden administration?s climate bills could have on that effort. I learned a ton from this one, and I think you will too.

Book recommendations:

Making Climate Policy Work by Danny Cullenward and David G. Victor

?Sequencing to Ratchet Up Climate Policy Stringency? (academic paper) by Michael Pahle, Dallas Burtraw, Christian Flachsland, Nina Kelsey, Eric Biber, Jonas Meckling, Ottmar Edenhofer and John Zysman

How Solar Energy Became Cheap by Gregory F. Nemet

Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at [email protected]

You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of ?The Ezra Klein Show? at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast, and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.

?The Ezra Klein Show? is produced by Annie Galvin and Rogé Karma. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris, Mary Marge Locker and Rollin Hu. Original music by Isaac Jones. Mixing by Carole Sabouraud and Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Shannon Busta. Special thanks to Kristin Lin and Kristina Samulewski.

2022-09-20
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Now All Biden Has to Do Is Build It

In the past few months, Joe Biden?s agenda has gone from a failed promise to real legislation.

Taken together, the CHIPS and Science Act and the Inflation Reduction Act (along with the Bipartisan Infrastructure Act) have the potential to put America on a path to decarbonization, develop some of the most advanced and crucial supply chains in the world, and build all kinds of next-generation technologies. It?s hard to overstate just how transformative these plans could be if they are carried out in the right way.

But that?s a big ?if.? Because Biden?s legacy will not be written just in tax code and regulatory law. All of this legislation is about building things in the real world ? from wind farms to semiconductor manufacturing plants to electric vehicle charging stations and so much more. Which means the hard work isn?t over. It?s just beginning.

Felicia Wong is the president and chief executive of the Roosevelt Institute and someone who has had an unusually clear read of the Biden administration from the beginning. Wong has been arguing that Biden wants to fundamentally reshape the productive capacity of the economy. And now he?s gotten approval of bills that have the potential to do just that. But Wong is also realistic about the obstacles in the way of realizing that project. And so the question at the center of this conversation is: What will it take to turn the Biden agenda from written legislation into lived reality?

We also discuss the death of the ?care infrastructure? for helping families that was at the heart of the Build Back Better proposal, the challenges of building up the American semiconductor industry, why some progressives view these bills as ?corporate welfare,? the conservative argument that government shouldn?t be ?picking winners and losers,? how these bills could respond to America?s deep regional inequalities, how to address the problem of NIMBYism, what participatory budgeting and worker cooperatives can teach us about better ways to represent community voices, why we should want the government to take bigger risks even if that means more government failure, and much more

Mentioned:

?All Biden Has to Do Now Is Change the Way We Live? by Ezra Klein

Book recommendations:

The Middle Out by Michael Tomasky (accompanied by new podcast, "How to Save a Country")

Elite Capture by Olúf??mi O. Táíwò

Chords of Change (forthcoming 2023) by Deepak Bhargava and Stephanie Luce

Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at [email protected]

You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of ?The Ezra Klein Show? at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast, and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.

?? ?The Ezra Klein Show? is produced by Annie Galvin and Rogé Karma. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris, Mary Marge Locker and Kate Sinclair. Original music by Isaac Jones. Mixing by Carole Sabouraud and Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Shannon Busta. Special thanks to Kristin Lin and Kristina Samulewski.

2022-09-16
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We Build Civilizations on Status. But We Barely Understand It.

?We see status virtually everywhere in social life, if we think to look for it,? writes Cecilia Ridgeway. ?It suffuses everyday possessions, the cars we drive, the clothes we wear, the food brands we prefer, and the music we listen to.? And that?s only a partial list. Status influences the neighborhood we live in, the occupation we pursue, the friends we choose. It attaches itself to our race, gender, class and age. It shapes our interpersonal interactions. And, most of the time, it does all of this without us even realizing what?s happening.

Ridgeway is a sociologist and professor emerita at Stanford who has spent her career studying what she calls the ?deep story? of status. Her 2019 book ?Status: Why Is It Everywhere? Why Does It Matter?? is the culmination of decades of research into what status is, how it actually works, and the myriad ways it shapes our world.

We typically think of status as social vanity limited to elite institutions or the top percentages of the income ladder. But Ridgeway argues that the truth is closer to the opposite: Status is everywhere. It?s the water we all swim in. And the reason it?s everywhere is that it?s one of humanity?s oldest and most powerful social technologies ? a technology that has built civilizations, inspired revolutions and spurred countless innovations while also reinforcing some of our world?s deepest inequalities and injustices.

So this conversation is about making visible an often overlooked force that shapes so much of our world, our lives and even our sense of self. It also explores how status hierarchies emerge from ?a fundamental tension in the human condition?; why sports, religion, fashion and meritocracy can all be considered forms of status ?games?; how status games simultaneously help explain the advent of modern science and the pervasiveness of racial and gender stereotypes; why scholars increasingly view status as a ?fundamental human motive?; why our society allocates higher status to investment bankers than teachers; how public policy can change our status beliefs; how elite-status signaling has shifted from wearing fancy clothes and driving expensive cars to reading The New Yorker and listening to NPR; how the internet has completely transformed our relationships with status; and much more.

Mentioned:

The Sum of Small Things by Elizabeth Currid-Halkett

The Knowledge Machine by Michael Strevens

The Status Game by Will Storr

Book Recommendations:

Envy Up, Scorn Down by Susan T. Fiske

The Psychology of Social Status by Joey T. Cheng, Jessica L. Tracy, Cameron Anderson

The Theory of the Leisure Class by Thorstein Veblen

This episode is guest-hosted by Rogé Karma, the senior editor for ?The Ezra Klein Show.? Rogé has been with the show since July 2019, when it was based at Vox. He works closely with Ezra on everything related to the show, from editing to interview prep to guest selection. At Vox, he also wrote articles and conducted interviews on topics ranging from policing and racial justice to democracy reform and the coronavirus.

Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at [email protected]

You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of ?The Ezra Klein Show? at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast, and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.

???The Ezra Klein Show? is produced by Annie Galvin and Rogé Karma. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris and Kate Sinclair. Original music by Isaac Jones. Mixing by Carole Sabouraud and Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Shannon Busta. Special thanks to Kristin Lin and Kristina Samulewski.

2022-09-13
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Opinion Roundtable: Behind America?s Public School Battles

Today we?re bringing you a special episode from New York Times Opinion: a roundtable, hosted by Lulu Garcia-Navarro, about how parents view the role of school. America?s schools have emerged as a battleground for the country?s most fervent cultural disagreements, and in many places, parents are finding themselves on the front lines. Three parents of public school students joined Lulu Garcia-Navarro to discuss the big questions underlying the new era of parental activism.

Letha Muhammad is a mother of three in Raleigh, N.C., and serves as the executive director of the nonprofit Education Justice Alliance, which works to dismantle the school-to-prison and school-to-deportation pipelines. Tom Chavez of Elmhurst, Ill., is a father of three who co-founded the group Elmhurst Parents for Integrity in Curriculum, which seeks to remove ideological agendas from the classroom. Siva Raj lives in San Francisco with his two sons and co-founded the group SF Guardians, which led the drive to recall three of the city?s school board members this year.

This episode was produced as part of a special series from New York Times Opinion exploring the purpose of K-12 education. 

This Times Opinion roundtable was produced by Lulu Garcia-Navarro, Phoebe Lett, Kristin Lin, Derek Arthur and Cassady Rosenblum, with help from Shannon Busta, Olivia Natt, Aaron Retica, Eleanor Barkhorn, Alison Bruzek and Anabel Bacon. Original music and mixing by Isaac Jones. Fact-checking by Kate Sinclair, Mary Marge Locker and Michelle Harris.

You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of ?The Ezra Klein Show? at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast, and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.

2022-09-10
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The Subtle Art of Appreciating ?Difficult Beauty?

When is the last time you paused ? truly paused the flow of life ? to appreciate something beautiful? For as long as we know, humans have sought out beauty, believing deeply that beautiful things and experiences can enhance our lives. But what does beauty really do to us? How can it fundamentally alter our experience of the world?

Beauty is always ?teaching me something about my own mind,? says the writer and philosopher Chloé Cooper Jones. In her book, ?Easy Beauty,? Jones takes readers on a journey across the globe and into her intimate family life to explore what beauty has done for her and what it can potentially do for all of us.

At the core of Jones?s book ? and of this conversation ? is a distinction between two radically different kinds of beauty. On the one hand, there?s ?easy beauty?: a Renaissance painting, a sunset, a deliciously prepared meal. Easy beauty includes the kinds of things we are taught to consider beautiful. But Jones argues there?s also a deeper form of beauty ? a ?difficult beauty,? which can be found in places that may initially strike us as mundane, messy, even ugly. That is, if we clear the space within our own minds long enough to look for it.

This conversation also explores how Jones?s relationship to her disabled body has changed over time, what it means to appreciate the physical world more fully, how all of us are affected by our society?s crushing physical beauty standards, how Jones has created a ?neutral room? in her mind to cope with those difficult standards, what attending a Beyoncé concert taught her about ?radical presence,? what a celebrity party Peter Dinklage attended revealed about how far we need to go in respecting different bodies, why it is worth it to ?make friends? with the idea that we may all become disabled or incapacitated at some point, how children reflect and reveal parts of ourselves we didn?t even know existed, what advice she has for those of us who spend very little time considering beauty but could benefit from it as Jones has, and more.

Book Recommendations:

Staring by Rosemarie Garland-Thomson

H is for Hawk by Helen Macdonald

Romance in Marseille by Claude McKay

This episode is guest-hosted by Tressie McMillan Cottom (@tressiemcphd), a sociologist and writer whose work focuses on higher education policy, race, beauty and more. She is a Times Opinion columnist and the author of ?Thick: And Other Essays,? which was a finalist for the National Book Award, and ?Lower Ed: The Troubling Rise of For-Profit Colleges in the New Economy.?

Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at [email protected]

You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of ?The Ezra Klein Show? at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast, and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.

?The Ezra Klein Show? is produced by Annie Galvin and Rogé Karma; fact-checking by Michelle Harris, Mary Marge Locker and Kate Sinclair; original music by Isaac Jones; mixing by Sonia Herrero and Isaac Jones; audience strategy by Shannon Busta. Special thanks to Kristin Lin and Kristina Samulewski.

2022-09-06
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Best Of: This Conversation With Richard Powers Is a Gift

Today we're revisiting one of our favorite conversations from 2021 with the novelist Richard Powers. Enjoy!

There are certain conversations I fear trying to fit into a description. There?s just more to them than I?m going to be able to convey. This is one of them.

Richard Powers is the author of 13 novels, including the 2019 Pulitzer Prize-winning ?The Overstory.? If you haven?t read it, you should. It?ll change you. It changed me. I haven?t walked through a forest the same way again. And I?m not alone in that. When I interviewed Barack Obama this year, he recommended ?The Overstory,? saying, ?It changed how I thought about the earth and our place in it.?

Powers?s new book is ?Bewilderment.? You could think of it as 'The Innerstory': It is about how and whether we see the world we inhabit. It?s about the nature and limits of our empathy. It?s about refusing to die before we?re dead and taking seriously the gifts and responsibilities of being alive. It is about how we change our minds and how we change our societies. It is about how we treat delusion as normal and clarity as lunacy. It is enchanting, and it is devastating.

It is not just books through which Powers has been exploring these ideas. It is also through radical changes he?s made to how he lives his life. That?s where we start but far from where we end: This conversation touches on mortality, animism, politics, old-growth forests, extraterrestrial life, Buddhism and beyond.

Mentioned:

Finding the Mother Tree by Suzanne Simard

Book recommendations:

How to Be Animal by Melanie Challenger

Rooted by Lyanda Lynn Haupt

Ever Green by John W. Reid and Thomas E. Lovejoy

You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of ?The Ezra Klein Show? at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast, and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.

Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at [email protected]

This episode of ?The Ezra Klein Show? was produced by Annie Galvin, Jeff Geld and Rogé Karma; fact-checking by Michelle Harris; original music by Isaac Jones; mixing by Jeff Geld, audience strategy by Shannon Busta. Special thanks to Kristin Lin.

2022-09-02
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A Grammy-Nominated Singer Performs and Explores Music's Power

In times of deep sorrow or joy, humans have always turned to music. Archaeologists have found evidence of instruments among very early civilizations. Spiritual communities have centered on music for centuries. We teach our children their ABCs and how to brush their teeth with songs. We dance out our feelings and cry along with sad tunes. What is it about music that enables it to work so powerfully on our bodies, minds and emotions?

That is one of the core animating questions of this conversation with Allison Russell. Russell is a Grammy-nominated singer and songwriter whose debut album, ?Outside Child,? was named one of the best albums of 2021 by critics at NPR and The Times.

Russell has played in bands including Birds of Chicago and Our Native Daughters, traversing folk, rock ?n? roll, Celtic music, the blues and other genres. But alongside her powerhouse vocals and gorgeous melodies, Russell infuses a deep scholarly curiosity into her songs ? not just about the nature and power of music, but also what it can teach listeners about our world.

Digging into archives and family history, she explores themes like generational trauma, our relationships to diaspora and migration and how music can build empathic bridges between us in times of deep division. But above all, her songs testify to the sheer human capacity for resilience: our capacity to transcend our darkest times if we hold on, reach out to one another and seek out art that helps console.

In this episode, Russell performs four songs with a full band, so listeners can enjoy her infectious art. And then we use those songs as jumping-off points to explore the deeper ideas embedded in her music: why we fall into melodies so soon after our births; how music moves us differently from how books or speeches do; how sound can help regulate our emotions, slow our breathing and rewire our neural networks; how Russell?s melodies and vocal performances come together in her mind; why songs can at times be more persuasive than nonfiction; why our unwillingness to divulge painful secrets goes back to the Victorian era; how generational trauma like the Middle Passage connects to personal trauma in the present; how Russell structures her songs to help people transcend profound pain; what message Russell would send to people who are struggling and much more.

This episode contains references to sexual abuse.

Mentioned:

?The Transmogrification of Trauma into Art? by Allison Russell

?Barley? by Birds of Chicago

?Real Midnight? by Birds of Chicago

?Songs of Our Native Daughters? by Our Native Daughters

?The Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald? by Gordon Lightfoot

?Take Em Away? by Old Crow Medicine Show

?The Art of Disappearance? by Hanif Abdurraqib

Music and Book Recommendations:

The Bone People by Keri Hulme

A Fortune for Your Disaster by Hanif Abdurraqib

Breaking the Thermometer by Leyla McCalla

Carry Me Home by Mavis Staples and Levon Helm

This episode was guest hosted by Annie Galvin, the associate producer of ?The Ezra Klein Show.? Galvin has covered books and music for almost a decade and hosted a season of ?Public Books 101,? a public-scholarship podcast she co-created.

Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at [email protected]

You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of ?The Ezra Klein Show? at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast, and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.

?The Ezra Klein Show? is produced by Annie Galvin and Rogé Karma; fact-checking by Michelle Harris, Mary Marge Locker and Kate Sinclair; original music by Isaac Jones; mixing by Carole Sabouraud and Isaac Jones; audience strategy by Shannon Busta. Special thanks to Kristin Lin, Kristina Samulewski and Erika Duffee. Russell?s band is Monique Ross, Chauntee Ross and Mandy Fer. Additional thanks to Jeff Gruber of Blue House Productions and Allison?s touring engineer, Ross Collier. The songs Russell performs in this episode were written by Allison Russell and Jeremy Thomas Lindsay.

2022-08-30
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Best Of: Margaret Atwood on the Bible and the Future

Today we're revisiting one of our favorite episodes from this year, with the prolific writer Margaret Atwood.

A good rule of thumb is that whatever Margaret Atwood is worried about now is likely what the rest of us will be worried about a decade from now. The rise of authoritarianism. A backlash against women?s social progress. The seductions and dangers of genetic engineering. Climate change leading to social unrest. Advertising culture permeating more and more of our lives. Atwood ? the author of the Booker Prize-winning novels ?The Blind Assassin? and ?The Testaments,? as well as ?The Handmaid?s Tale,? ?Oryx and Crake? and, most recently, the essay collection ?Burning Questions? ? was writing about these topics decades ago, forecasting the unsettling world that we inhabit now. Pick up any one of her 17 published novels, and you will likely come across a theme or a quality of the setting that rings eerily true in the present day.

This is especially true of Atwood?s magnum opus, ?The Handmaid?s Tale,? which takes place in a future America where climate change, droughts, a decaying economy and falling birthrates lead to the rise of a theocracy in which women called Handmaids are conscripted into childbirth. The repressive regime she created in that novel, Gilead, has been endlessly referred to and reinterpreted over the years because of the wisdom it contains about why people cooperate with ? and resist ? political movements that destroy the freedom of others. And as recent weeks have shown, we?re far from the day when that wisdom becomes irrelevant to present circumstances.

We discuss the deep human craving for stories, why Atwood believes we are engaged in ?an arm wrestle for the soul of America,? what makes the stories of the Bible so compelling, the dangerous allure of totalitarian movements, how the shift from coal to oil helped to fuel the rise of modern consumerism, why she thinks climate change will cause even more harm by increasing the likelihood of war than it will by increasing the likelihood of extreme weather, how our society lost its capacity to imagine new utopias, why progressives need to incorporate more fun into their politics, why we should ?keep our eye on the mushroom,? Atwood?s take on recent U.F.O. sightings and more. She even sings a bit of a song from the 1950s about the Iron Curtain.

Mentioned:

Art & Energy by Barry Lord

Book recommendations:

War by Margaret MacMillan

Biased by Jennifer L. Eberhardt

Secrets of the Sprakkar by Eliza Reid

Charlotte?s Web by E. B. White

Lord of the Rings by J. R. R. Tolkien

Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at [email protected]

You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of ?The Ezra Klein Show? at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast, and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.

This episode of ?The Ezra Klein Show? was produced by Annie Galvin, Jeff Geld and Rogé Karma; fact-checking by Michelle Harris, Kate Sinclair and Mary Marge Locker; original music by Isaac Jones; mixing by Jeff Geld; audience strategy by Shannon Busta. Our executive producer is Irene Noguchi. Special thanks to Kristin Lin, Kristina Samulewski, Coral Ann Howells and Brooks Bouson.

2022-08-26
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Why the Evangelical Movement Is in ?Disarray? After Dobbs

With Roe now overturned, the evangelical movement has achieved one of its decades-old political priorities. But for many evangelicals, this isn?t the moment of celebration and unity it may have first appeared to be. In the wake of the decision in Dobbs v. Jackson Women?s Health Organization, Russell Moore ? a former president of the Ethics & Religious Liberty Commission, the policy wing of the Southern Baptist Convention ? described the state of evangelicalism as one of ?disarray.? He argues that surface-level political allegiances paint over much deeper divisions within what has become an increasingly polarized movement. Understanding those divisions and what they portend for evangelicalism is deeply important, in large part because of the movement?s immense power in American politics.

Moore is the editor in chief of Christianity Today; the author of numerous books, including ?Onward: Engaging the Culture Without Losing the Gospel?; and one of the most visible leaders in the evangelical movement right now. But he has also voiced some of the most stinging criticism of the movement?s current direction. He believes that evangelicals? embrace of Donald Trump was a mistake and that the way many evangelicals are approaching the culture wars ? with what Moore calls a ?siege mentality? ? is toxic for the faith. He encourages his fellow evangelicals to embrace their role as a ?moral minority? in America instead of desperately clinging to political and cultural power. ?The shaking of American culture is no sign that God has given up on American Christianity,? he writes in ?Onward.? ?In fact, it may be a sign that God is rescuing American Christianity from itself.?

So this is a conversation about how evangelicalism morphed into the political identity we know it as today, why so many evangelicals have come to embrace apocalyptic thinking about politics and where the movement goes next now that Roe has been overturned.

Mentioned

?The Supreme Court Needs to Be Less Central to American Public Life? by Russell Moore

Book Recommendations

The Weight of Glory by C.S. Lewis

Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis

The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe by C.S. Lewis

The Resurrection of the Son of God by N.T. Wright

The Gilead Novels by Marilynne Robinson

This episode was hosted by Jane Coaston, the host of ?The Argument.? Previously, she was the senior politics reporter at Vox, with a focus on conservatism and the G.O.P. Her work has appeared on MSNBC, CNN and NPR and in National Review, The Washington Post, The Ringer and ESPN Magazine, among others.

Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at [email protected]

You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of ?The Ezra Klein Show? at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast, and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.

???The Ezra Klein Show? is produced by Annie Galvin and Rogé Karma; fact-checking by Michelle Harris, Mary Marge Locker and Kate Sinclair; original music by Isaac Jones; mixing by Sonia Herrero and Isaac Jones; audience strategy by Shannon Busta. Special thanks to Kristin Lin and Kristina Samulewski.

2022-08-23
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Best of: A Life-Changing Philosophy of Games

Today, we?re re-airing one of my favorite episodes of all time. It was originally recorded in February of 2022, but I've been unable to stop thinking about it ever since.

When we play Monopoly or basketball, we know we are playing a game. The stakes are low. The rules are silly. The point system is arbitrary. But what if life is full of games ? ones with much higher stakes ? that we don?t even realize we?re playing?

According to the philosopher C. Thi Nguyen, games and gamified systems are everywhere in modern life. Social media applies the lure of a points-based scoring system to the complex act of communication. Fitness apps convert the joy and beauty of physical motion into a set of statistics you can monitor. The grades you received in school flatten the qualitative richness of education into a numerical competition. If you?ve ever consulted the U.S. News & World Report college rankings database, you?ve witnessed the leaderboard approach to university admissions.

In Nguyen?s book, ?Games: Agency as Art,? a core insight is that we?re not simply playing these games ? they are playing us, too. Our desires, motivations and behaviors are constantly being shaped and reshaped by incentives and systems that we aren?t even aware of. Whether on the internet or in the vast bureaucracies that structure our lives, we find ourselves stuck playing games over and over again that we may not even want to win ? and that we aren?t able to easily walk away from.

This is one of those conversations that offers a new and surprising lens for understanding the world. We discuss the unique magic of activities like rock climbing and playing board games, how Twitter?s system of likes and retweets is polluting modern politics, why governments and bureaucracies love tidy packets of information, how echo chambers like QAnon bring comfort to their ?players,? how to make sure we don?t get stuck in a game without realizing it, why we should be a little suspicious of things that give us pleasure and how to safeguard our own values in a world that wants us to care about winning the most points.

Mentioned:

How Twitter Gamifies Communication by C. Thi Nguyen

Trust in Numbers by Theodore M. Porter

Seeing Like a State by James C. Scott

?Against Rotten Tomatoes? by Matt Strohl

?A Game Designer?s Analysis Of QAnon? by Reed Berkowitz

The Great Endarkenment by Elijah Millgram

Game recommendations:

Modern Art

Root

The Quiet Year

Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at [email protected]

You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of ?The Ezra Klein Show? at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast, and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.

?The Ezra Klein Show? is produced by Annie Galvin, Jeff Geld and Rogé Karma; fact-checking by Michelle Harris; original music by Isaac Jones; mixing by Jeff Geld; audience strategy by Shannon Busta.  Special thanks to Kristin Lin.

2022-08-19
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The Office is Dying. It?s Time to Rethink How We Work.

Over the past year, many places have returned to something approximating a prepandemic normal. Restaurants are filling up again. Airports and hotels are packed. Even movie theaters have made a comeback. But that hasn?t been the case for the office. Only about a third of office workers are back in the office full time. And that isn?t likely to change dramatically any time soon: Recent surveys asked executives about the share of their workers who would be back in the office five days a week in the future. In 2021 the response was 50 percent; now it?s down to 20 percent.

But the alternatives ? remote and hybrid work ? come with their own problems. In many cases, remote work has become synonymous with meeting fatigue, the collapse of work-life balance, overwhelming amounts of email and Slack messages and awkward attempts at social connection. And hybrid work setups often represent what some have called the worst of both work worlds: long commutes to half-empty offices, just to sit on Zoom calls all day.

That leaves office workers in what feels like a work purgatory: The office is dying, but a new, viable model of work has yet to be born. And that liminal space raises all sorts of new questions: What is the office actually for? What will the postoffice future of work look like? And if the future of work means working from home in some capacity, how do we make that future better for everyone involved?

Those questions are at the center of Anne Helen Petersen and Charlie Warzel?s book, ?Out of Office: The Big Problem and Bigger Promise of Working From Home.? Petersen is a longtime culture writer who writes the newsletter Culture Study; Warzel is a veteran technology reporter who writes the newsletter Galaxy Brain for The Atlantic. In ?Out of Office? they argue that the core problem with current remote and hybrid work setups is this: Workers have left the physical office, but they have taken the broken culture of the office with them. The result is widespread dysfunction but also immense opportunity: If we take this moment to rethink not only where we work but also how we work, then the possibilities are endless. 

Mentioned:

?The Case Against Loving Your Job? by The Ezra Klein Show

?Stop. Breathe. We Can?t Keep Working Like This? by The Ezra Klein Show

?Think Bigger About Remote Work? by Adam Ozimek

?I?m Worried About Chicago? by Matthew Yglesias

"The Nowhere Office" by Julia Hobsbawm

Book Recommendations:

In the Age of the Smart Machine by Shoshana Zuboff

The Myth of the Paperless Office by Abigail J. Sellen and Richard H. R. Harper

Liquidated by Karen Ho

Essential Labor by Angela Garbes

This episode is guest hosted by Rogé Karma, the senior editor for ?The Ezra Klein Show.? Rogé has been with the show since July 2019, when it was based at Vox. He works closely with Ezra on everything related to the show, from editing to interview prep to guest selection. At Vox, he also wrote articles and conducted interviews on topics ranging from policing and racial justice to democracy reform and the coronavirus.

Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at [email protected]

You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of ?The Ezra Klein Show? at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast, and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.

???The Ezra Klein Show? is produced by Annie Galvin and Rogé Karma; fact-checking by Michelle Harris, Mary Marge Locker and Kate Sinclair; original music by Isaac Jones; mixing by Sonia Herrero and Isaac Jones; audience strategy by Shannon Busta. Special thanks to Kristin Lin, Kristina Samulewski, Nicholas Bloom, Adam Ozimek, Julia Hobsbawm and Sheela Subramanian.

2022-08-16
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How Do We Face Loss With Dignity?

In his latest work, ?The Last White Man,? the award-winning writer Mohsin Hamid imagines a world that is very like our own, with one major exception: On various days, white people wake up to discover that their skin is no longer white. It?s a heavy premise, but one of Hamid?s unique talents as a novelist is his ability to take on the most difficult of topics ? racism, migration, loss ? with a remarkably light touch.

?How do you begin to have these conversations in a way that allows everybody a way in?? Hamid asks at one point in our conversation. ?How do you talk about these things in a way that?s open to everyone?? What sets Hamid apart is his capacity to do just that ? both in his fiction and in our conversation. We discuss:

How Hamid experienced what it was like to lose his whiteness after 9/11What happens to a society when suddenly we can?t sort ourselves by raceThe origins of modern humans? fear of death ? and how to overcome itWhy Hamid thinks future humans will look back at the idea of borders with moral horrorWhy Hamid believes that pessimistic realism is a ?deeply conservative? worldviewHamid?s process for imagining optimistic futuresWhy Hamid believes that the very notion of the self is a fictionWhy we turn to activities like sex, drugs and meditation when we get overwhelmedHow America?s policies toward immigrants and refugees should challenge our ?heroic? sense of national identityWhat Toni Morrison taught Hamid about how to read and write

And more.

Mentioned:

"The Metamorphosis" by Franz Kafka

Exit West by Mohsin Hamid

Book Recommendations:

Beloved by Toni Morrison

Ficciones by Jorge Luis Borges

The Epic of Gilgamesh, translated by Andrew George

Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at [email protected]

You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of ?The Ezra Klein Show? at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast, and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.

?The Ezra Klein Show? is produced by Annie Galvin and Rogé Karma; fact-checking by Michelle Harris, Mary Marge Locker and Kate Sinclair; original music by Isaac Jones; mixing by Sonia Herrero and Isaac Jones; audience strategy by Shannon Busta. Special thanks to Kristin Lin and Kristina Samulewski.

2022-08-12
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Three Sentences That Could Change the World ? and Your Life

Today?s show is built around three simple sentences: ?Future people count. There could be a lot of them. And we can make their lives better.? Those sentences form the foundation of an ethical framework known as ?longtermism.? They might sound obvious, but to take them seriously is a truly radical endeavor ? one with the power to change the world and even your life.

That second sentence is where things start to get wild. It?s possible that there could be tens of trillions of future people, that future people could outnumber current people by a ratio of something like a million to one. And if that?s the case, then suddenly most of the things we spend most of our time arguing about shrink in importance compared with the things that will affect humanity?s long-term future.

William MacAskill is a professor of philosophy at Oxford University, the director of the Forethought Foundation for Global Priorities Research and the author of the forthcoming book, ?What We Owe the Future,? which is the best distillation of the longtermist worldview I?ve read. So this is a conversation about what it means to take the moral weight of the future seriously and the way that everything ? from our political priorities to career choices to definitions of heroism ? changes when you do.

We also cover the host of questions that longtermism raises: How should we weigh the concerns of future generations against those of living people? What are we doing today that future generations will view in the same way we look back on moral atrocities like slavery? Who are the ?moral weirdos? of our time we should be paying more attention to? What are the areas we should focus on, the policies we should push, the careers we should choose if we want to guarantee a better future for our posterity?

And much more.

Mentioned:

"Is A.I. the Problem? Or Are We?" by The Ezra Klein Show 

"How to Do The Most Good" by The Ezra Klein Show 

"This Conversation With Richard Powers Is a Gift" by The Ezra Klein Show

Book Recommendations:

?Moral Capital? by Christopher Leslie Brown

?The Precipice? by Toby Ord

?The Scout Mindset? by Julia Galef

Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at [email protected]

You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of ?The Ezra Klein Show? at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast, and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.

???The Ezra Klein Show? is produced by Annie Galvin and Rogé Karma; fact-checking by Michelle Harris, Mary Marge Locker and Kate Sinclair; original music by Isaac Jones; mixing by Sonia Herrero and Isaac Jones; audience strategy by Shannon Busta. Special thanks to Kristin Lin and Kristina Samulewski.

2022-08-09
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Gender Is Complicated for All of Us. Let?s Talk About It.

It?s hard to think of anything changing more quickly in our society right now than our understanding of gender. There?s an explosion of young people identifying as gender nonconforming in some way or another, and others are coming out as transgender or nonbinary throughout their lives, from childhood to old age. But this sea change has brought with it an enormous amount of confusion and resistance. As of July, lawmakers in 21 states had introduced bills that focus on restricting gender-affirming medical care for transgender youth, such as hormone blockers, and 29 states had introduced bills banning transgender youth from sports. But we also know that the degree of support a young person receives when coming out ? or doesn?t ? can have profound consequences for their mental health.

How should we process and understand this moment in gender? Kathryn Bond Stockton is a distinguished professor of English focusing on gender studies at the University of Utah and the author of the book ?Gender(s).? She is incredibly skilled at explaining the fundamentals ? and complexities ? of what gender means and how people, including Stockton herself, have wrestled with it. In this conversation, we discuss:

Why and how Stockton has always felt out of place as a womanHow her entry to the evangelical church actually advanced her acceptance of her genderWhy gender is ?queer? for all of us, regardless of how we identify or how much we think about itThe ways that we perform our genders without even knowing we?re doing itHow the choices parents make concerning things as seemingly banal as clothing and toys shape children?s gender identitiesHow an expanded sense of gender can bring pain as well as pleasure and playfulnessWhat Stockton has learned from discussions about gender roles with Mormon students in her Utah classroomsWhat we would gain ? and possibly lose ? if we were to loosen social categories of genderWhy Pride celebrations can be so utopian

And much more.

Mentioned:

Detransition, Baby by Torrey Peters

Butch Queens Up in Pumps by Marlon M. Bailey

Book Recommendations:

Histories of the Transgender Child by Jules Gill-Peterson

Brilliant Imperfection by Eli Clare

Asegi Stories by Qwo-Li Driskill

Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at [email protected]

You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of ?The Ezra Klein Show? at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast, and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.

?The Ezra Klein Show? is produced by Annie Galvin and Rogé Karma; fact-checking by Michelle Harris and Kate Sinclair; original music by Isaac Jones; mixing by Sonia Herrero and Isaac Jones; audience strategy by Shannon Busta. Special thanks to Kristin Lin, Kristina Samulewski and Rollin Hu.

2022-08-05
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The Argument: Who Can Write About What?

Today we're bringing you an episode from our friends at The Argument, about cultural appropriation in creative work. In recent years, book written by white authors like ?American Dirt? and ?The Help" have been criticized for their portrayals of characters of color. Artists? job is to imagine and create, but what do we do when they get it wrong?

To discuss, Jane Coaston is joined by the Opinion writers Roxane Gay and Jay Caspian Kang. In their work, both have thought deeply about the thorny issues of writing across identities ? including what makes work authentic, the pressure of representation for writers of color and the roles social media and the publishing industry play in literary criticism. ?I don?t think it?s that complicated,? Roxane says. ?It?s not that we divorce identity from the conversation. It?s that we treat it as inherent because we can?t separate out parts of ourselves.?

Mentioned:

?White Fever Dreams? by Roxane Gay in Gay Magazine

?The Pity of the Elites? by Jay Caspian Kang

Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at [email protected] 

You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of ?The Ezra Klein Show? at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast, and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.

?The Ezra Klein Show? is produced by Annie Galvin and Rogé Karma; fact-checking by Michelle Harris, Rollin Hu, Mary Marge Locker and Kate Sinclair; original music by Isaac Jones and Pat McCusker; mixing by Pat McCusker; audience strategy by Shannon Busta. Special thanks to Kristin Lin and Kristina Samulewski. 

2022-08-02
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Best Of: Ruth Ozeki?s Enchanted Relationship to Minds and Possessions

Today we're taking a short break and re-releasing one of our favorite episodes from 2022, a conversation with the novelist and Buddhist priest Ruth Ozeki. We'll be back with new episodes next week!

The world has gotten louder, even when we?re alone. A day spent in isolation can still mean a day buffeted by the voices on social media and the news, on podcasts, in emails and text messages. Objects have also gotten louder: through the advertisements that follow us around the web, the endless scroll of merchandise available on internet shopping sites and in the plentiful aisles of superstores. What happens when you really start listening to all these voices? What happens when you can?t stop hearing them?

Ruth Ozeki is a Zen Buddhist priest and the author of novels including ?A Tale for the Time Being,? which was shortlisted for the Booker Prize, and ?The Book of Form and Emptiness,? which I read over paternity leave and loved. ?The Book of Form and Emptiness? is about Benny, a teenager who starts hearing objects speak to him right after his father?s death, and it?s about his mother, Annabelle, who can?t let go of anything she owns, and can?t seem to help her son or herself. And then it?s about so much more than that: mental illnesses and materialism and consumerism and creative inspiration and information overload and the power of stories and the role of libraries and unshared mental experiences and on and on. It?s a book thick with ideas but written with a deceptively light, gentle pen.

Our conversation begins by exploring what it means to hear voices in our minds, and whether it?s really so rare. We talk about how Ozeki?s novels begin she hears a character speaking in her mind, how meditation can teach you to detach from own internal monologue, why Marie Kondo?s almost animist philosophy of tidying became so popular across the globe, whether objects want things, whether practicing Zen has helped her want less and, my personal favorite part, the dilemmas posed by an empty box with the words ?empty box? written on it.

Mentioned:

The Great Shift by James L. Kugel

Book recommendations:

When You Greet Me I Bow by Norman Fischer

The Aleph and Other Stories by Jorge Luis Borges

Vibrant Matter by Jane Bennett

This episode contains a brief mention of suicidal ideation. If you are having thoughts of suicide, call the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline at 1-800-273-8255 (TALK). A list of additional resources is available at SpeakingOfSuicide.com/resources.

Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at [email protected]

You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of ?The Ezra Klein Show? at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast, and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.

This episode of ?The Ezra Klein Show? was produced by Annie Galvin, Jeff Geld and Rogé Karma; fact-checking by Michelle Harris; original music by Isaac Jones; mixing by Jeff Geld; audience strategy by Shannon Busta. Special thanks to Kristin Lin and Kristina Samulewski.

2022-07-29
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The Mid-Century Media Theorists Who Saw What Was Coming

?At the very heart of democracy is a contradiction that cannot be resolved, one that has affected free societies from ancient Greece to contemporary America,? write Zac Gershberg and Sean Illing in their new book, ?The Paradox of Democracy.? In order to live up to its name, democracy must be open to free communication and expression; yet that very feature opens democracies up to the forces of chaos, fragmentation and demagoguery that undermine them. Historically, this paradox becomes particularly profound during transitions between different communication technologies. ?We see this time and again,? Gershberg and Illing write, ?media continually evolve faster than politics, resulting in recurring patterns of democratic instability.?

For that reason, Gershberg and Illing refer to media ecology ? a field dedicated to studying the complex interplay between media, humans and their broader social environments ? as ?the master political science.? You can?t understand a society?s politics without understanding the mediums through which its people communicate. Radio and TV and Twitter and TikTok each profoundly shape the way we think, the qualities we look for in our politicians, the way we absorb news, the kind of political discourse we engage in and so much more.

Illing?s career, in many ways, represents the intersection of these two worlds: He?s trained as a political theorist but eventually switched careers to become a journalist; he?s currently the interviews writer at Vox, where he hosts the podcast ?Vox Conversations? and often writes about the nexus of media and politics. So I invited Illing on the show to talk about his new book alongside some of his other work. We discuss: 

Why mid-century media theorists like Marshall McLuhan and Neil Postman are essential for understanding our current political momentHow the mediums through which we communicate ? TV, social media, print news ? shape us even more deeply than the content we absorb from themThe surprising dangers of ?Sesame Street?Why Abraham Lincoln probably never would have won the presidency in the TV eraHow revolutions in media technology from the printing press to Facebook have destabilized political systemsHow Twitter reshapes the thinking of those who use itWhy Illing believes that democracy is fundamentally a ?communicative culture? and not a set of rules and institutionsWhat Donald Trump understood about our media age that the media itself didn?tWhy Steve Bannon?s ?flood the zone? media strategy has been so successfulWhether it?s possible to achieve a healthier version of political discourse given our current technologies

And much more

This episode contains strong language.

Mentioned:

??Flood the zone with shit?: How misinformation overwhelmed our democracy? by Sean Illing

?Quantifying partisan news diets in Web and TV audiences? by Daniel Muise, Homa Hosseinmardi, Baird Howland, Markus Mobius, David Rothschild and Duncan J. Watts

Book Recommendations:

Amusing Ourselves to Death by Neil Postman

Public Opinion by Walter Lippmann

Mediated by Thomas de Zengotita

Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at [email protected]

You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of ?The Ezra Klein Show? at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast, and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.

?The Ezra Klein Show? is produced by Annie Galvin and Rogé Karma; fact-checking by Michelle Harris, Rollin Hu, Mary Marge Locker and Kate Sinclair; original music by Isaac Jones; mixing by Sonia Herrero, Carole Sabouraud and Isaac Jones; audience strategy by Shannon Busta. Special thanks to Kristin Lin and Kristina Samulewski.

2022-07-26
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A Top Mental Health Expert on Where America Went Wrong

There?s a paradox that sits at the center of our mental health conversation in America. On the one hand, our treatments for mental illness have gotten better and better in recent decades. Psychopharmaceuticals have improved considerably; new, more effective methods of psychotherapy have been developed; and we?ve reached a better understanding of what kinds of social support are most helpful for those experiencing mental health crises.

But at the same time, mental health outcomes have moved in exactly the wrong direction. In the United States, there is a death by suicide about every 11 minutes, and about half of those who die by that method have not received mental health care. Rates of anxiety, depression and eating disorders have skyrocketed among young people in recent years. From 2009 to 2015, rates of emergency room visits for self-harm more than doubled for girls ages 10 to 14.

Thomas Insel understands the contours of this disconnect as well as anyone. A psychiatrist and researcher, he was the director of the National Institute of Mental Health for 13 years, and has served as a special adviser on mental health care to California?s governor, Gavin Newsom. But in his new book, ?Healing: Our Path from Mental Illness to Mental Health,? he admits that even the herculean efforts made by the mental health community have fallen short. The book explores how badly we?re failing at mental health care, and how much more we could do with what we have already discovered, and what we already know. ?Put simply, the mental health problem is medical,? he writes, ?but the solutions are not just medical ? they are social, environmental, and political.?

In this conversation, we discuss why our current medical system is so inadequate at helping people with mental illnesses of all stripes, why psychiatric research and patient outcomes are so wildly out of step, the story of how the U.S. government systematically divested from mental health care in the 1980s, and the fragmented system of care that those decisions created. We also touch on why it?s so difficult to find the right therapist; which treatments we know work really well ? and why we so often fail to implement them; why mental health is not just a medical problem, but also an economic and social one; what public policy can, and importantly can?t, do to solve our mental health crisis; the relationship between loneliness and mental illness; how the loosening of family and social ties is impacting our collective mental health and more.

Mentions:

?Wealth-Care Reform? by Ezra Klein

?Together? by Vivek Murthy

?Vivek Murthy on America?s Loneliness Epidemic? episode from Vox Conversations

Book Recommendations:

Nobody?s Normal by Roy Richard Grinker

American Psychosis by E. Fuller Torrey

Crazy by Pete Earley

Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at [email protected]

You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of ?The Ezra Klein Show? at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast, and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.

?The Ezra Klein Show? is produced by Annie Galvin and Rogé Karma; fact-checking by Michelle Harris, Mary Marge Locker and Kate Sinclair; mixing by Sonia Herrero, Carole Sabouraud and Isaac Jones; original music by Isaac Jones; audience strategy by Shannon Busta. Special thanks to Kristin Lin and Kristina Samulewski.

2022-07-22
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Why Housing Is So Expensive ? Particularly in Blue States

America is experiencing a housing crisis ? or, more accurately, multiple housing crises. A massive housing shortage in major cities has resulted in skyrocketing rents. Low- and middle-income individuals find themselves priced out of the places with the most opportunity. Homelessness is rampant in cities across the country. Developers often face the steepest obstacles to building in the places where new housing is needed most. And young people are increasingly viewing homeownership, once a vital part of the American dream, as hopelessly out of reach.

These outcomes weren?t inevitable. Plenty of other countries supply their populations with high-quality housing at lower prices. And the solutions here are incredibly simple: Build more housing in places where it?s needed, build cheaper forms of housing, build housing alongside public transit, provide more housing vouchers. So why don?t we act on them?

Jenny Schuetz is a senior fellow at the Brookings Institution and the author of the new book ?Fixer Upper: How to Repair America?s Broken Housing Systems,? which is perhaps the best, clearest overview of America?s housing problems to date. We discuss why the states with the highest homelessness rates are all governed by Democrats, the roots of America?s homelessness crisis, why economists believe the U.S. gross domestic product could be over a third ? a third! ? higher today if American cities had built more housing, why it?s so hard to build housing where it?s needed most, the actual (and often misunderstood) causes of gentrification, why public housing has such a bad reputation in the U.S.; how progressives? commitment to local democracy and community voice surprisingly lies at the heart of America?s housing crises, why homeownership is still the primary vehicle of wealth accumulation in America (and the toxic impact that has on our politics), what the U.S. can learn from the housing policies of countries like Germany and France, what it would take to build a better politics of housing and much more.

Mentioned:

?The Left-NIMBY canon? by Noah Smith

The Homevoter Hypothesis by William A. Fischel

The Paradox of Democracy by Zac Gershberg and Sean Illing

Recommendations:

Crabgrass Frontier by Kenneth T. Jackson

Neighborhood Defenders by Katherine Levine Einstein, David M. Glick and Maxwell Palmer

Maid (Netflix series)

Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at [email protected]

You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of ?The Ezra Klein Show? at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast, and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.

?The Ezra Klein Show? is produced by Annie Galvin and Rogé Karma; fact-checking by Michelle Harris, Mary Marge Locker, Kate Sinclair and Rollin Hu; mixing by Sonia Herrero and Isaac Jones; original music by Isaac Jones; audience strategy by Shannon Busta. Special thanks to Kristin Lin and Kristina Samulewski.

2022-07-19
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A Weird, Wonderful Conversation With Kim Stanley Robinson

Kim Stanley Robinson is one of the great living science fiction writers and one of the most astute observers of how planets look, feel and work. His Mars Trilogy imagined what it might be like for humans to settle on the red planet. His best-selling novel ?The Ministry for the Future? is a masterful effort at envisioning what might happen to Earth in a future of unchecked climate change. Robinson has a rare command of both science and human nature, and his writing crystallizes how the two must work together if we are to rescue our collective planetary future from possible ruin.

In his most recent book, a rare turn to nonfiction called ?The High Sierra: A Love Story,? Robinson trains his attention on the planet we inhabit in the here and now, particularly on one of his favorite places on Earth: the Sierra Nevada mountain range in California and Nevada. The new book is part memoir, part guidebook, part meditation on how time, space and even politics take shape in a wondrous geological landscape.

We discuss why Robinson decided to start writing outdoors, what it was like to experience the Sierras on psychedelics in his youth, what ?actor-network theory? is and how it helps us understand our relationship to the planet and to our own bodies, why we should think of climate change more like we do plane crashes, what hiking backpacks say about American consumerism, how we should change our relationship to technology in order to be happier, why the politics of wanting are so confusing yet important, why Robinson is so excited about ideas like a wage ratio and rewilding schemes, how the ?structure of feeling? around climate has changed, why Robinson is feeling more hopeful about Earth?s future these days and more.

Mentioned:

?The Most Important Book I?ve Read This Year? by Vox Conversations

?Your Kids Are Not Doomed? by Ezra Klein

?Design for the Real World? by Victor Papanek

?Thomas Piketty?s Case for ?Participatory Socialism?? by The Ezra Klein Show

Book Recommendations:

A Brief History of Equality by Thomas Piketty

The Dawn of Everything by David Graeber and David Wengrow

The Echo Maker by Richard Powers

Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at [email protected]

You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of ?The Ezra Klein Show? at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast, and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.

?The Ezra Klein Show? is produced by Annie Galvin and Rogé Karma; fact-checking by Michelle Harris, Mary Marge Locker and Kate Sinclair; original music by Isaac Jones; mixing by Isaac Jones and Sonia Herrero; audience strategy by Shannon Busta. Our executive producer is Irene Noguchi. Special thanks to Kristin Lin and Kristina Samulewski.

2022-07-15
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First Person: To Fight for Ukraine?s Freedom, He Went Back Into the Closet

Today, we're bringing you an episode from the recently launched New York Times Opinion podcast, ?First Person,? hosted by Lulu Garcia-Navarro. In each episode, Lulu sits down with people living through the headlines for intimate and surprising conversations that help us make sense of our complicated world. This particular episode is about one gay Ukranian soldier?s experience fighting against Russia. 

Since the beginning of the war, Ukrainians of all backgrounds have come together to fight their common enemy, Russia. But for some Ukrainians, that enemy holds particular terror. In Russia, gay people are routinely targeted for their identity ? arrested without cause and even tortured. That?s what motivated Oleksandr Zhuhan to join the volunteer Territorial Defense Forces, despite experiencing homophobia in Ukraine. In the months since, Zhuhan has been fighting two battles: one for his country and one for his identity.

You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more information for all episodes at nytimes.com/column/first-person

?First Person? is produced by Derek Arthur, Christina Djossa, Jason Pagano, Cristal Duhaime, Olivia Natt and Courtney Stein. The show is edited by Kaari Pitkin, Stephanie Joyce and Lisa Tobin. Scoring by Isaac Jones, Pat McCusker and Carole Sabouraud. Mixing by Isaac Jones. Fact-checking by Mary Marge Locker. Audience strategy by Shannon Busta, with editorial support from Kristina Samulewski. The executive producer of Opinion audio is Irene Noguchi, and the director of New York Times audio is Paula Szuchman. Special thanks to Jeffrey Miranda, Kate Sinclair, Patrick Healy and Katie Kingsbury.

2022-07-12
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Michelle Goldberg Grapples With Feminism After Roe

?It?s true: We?re in trouble,? writes Michelle Goldberg of the modern feminist movement. ?One thing backlashes do is transform a culture?s common sense and horizons of possibility. A backlash isn?t just a political formation. It?s also a new structure of feeling that makes utopian social projects seem ridiculous.?

It wouldn?t be fair to blame the Supreme Court decision in Dobbs v. Jackson Women?s Health Organization and the ensuing wave of draconian abortion laws sweeping the nation on a failure of persuasion, or on a failure of the women?s movement. But signs of anti-feminist backlash are permeating American culture: Girlbosses have become figures of ridicule, Amber Heard?s testimony drew a fire hose of misogyny, and recent polling finds that younger generations ? both men and women ? are feeling ambivalent about whether feminism has helped or hurt women. A movement that has won so many victories in law, politics and public opinion is now defending its very existence.

Goldberg is a columnist for Times Opinion who focuses on gender and politics. In recent weeks, she has written a series of columns grappling with the overturning of Roe v. Wade, but also considering the broader atmosphere that created so much despair on the left. What can feminists ? and Democrats more broadly ? learn from anti-abortion organizers? How has the women?s movement changed in the half-century since Roe, and where can the movement go after this loss? Has feminism moved too far away from its early focus on organizing and into the turbulent waters of online discourse? Has it become a victim of its own success?

We discuss a ?flabbergasting? poll about the way young people ? both men and women ? feel about feminism, why so many young people have become pessimistic about heterosexual relationships, how the widespread embrace of feminism defanged its politics, why the anti-abortion movement is so good at recruiting and retaining activists ? and what the left can learn from them, how today?s backlash against women compares to that of the Reagan years, why nonprofits on the left are in such extreme turmoil, why a social movement?s obsession with ?cringe? can be its downfall, how ?safe spaces? on the left started to feel unsafe, why feminism doesn?t always serve poor women, whether the #MeToo movement was overly dismissive of ?due process? and how progressives could improve the way they talk about the family and more.

Mentioned:

?The Future Isn?t Female Anymore? by Michelle Goldberg

?Amber Heard and the Death of #MeToo? by Michelle Goldberg

Rethinking Sex by Christine Emba

The Case Against the Sexual Revolution by Louise Perry

Bad Sex by Nona Willis Aronowitz

?Elephant in the Zoom? by Ryan Grim

?The Tyranny of Structurelessness? by Jo Freeman

?Lessons From the Terrible Triumph of the Anti-Abortion Movement? by Michelle Goldberg

The Making of Pro-Life Activists by Ziad W. Munson

Steered by the Reactionary: What To Do About Feminism by The Drift

Book Recommendations:

Backlash by Susan Faludi

No More Nice Girls by Ellen Willis

Status and Culture by W. David Marx

Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at [email protected]

You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of ?The Ezra Klein Show? at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast, and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.

?The Ezra Klein Show? is produced by Annie Galvin and Rogé Karma; fact-checking by Michelle Harris and Kate Sinclair; original music by Isaac Jones; mixing by Sonia Herrero and Isaac Jones; audience strategy by Shannon Busta. Our executive producer is Irene Noguchi. Special thanks to Kristin Lin and Kristina Samulewski.

2022-07-08
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Liberals Need a Clearer Vision of the Constitution. Here?s What It Could Look Like.

For decades now, the conservative legal movement has been on a mission to remake this nation?s laws from the bench. And it?s working. On Friday we released an episode with the legal scholar Kate Shaw that walked through case after case showing how conservative Supreme Court majorities have lurched this country?s laws to the right on guns, voting, gerrymandering, regulatory authority, unions, campaign finance and more in the past 20 years. And if the Dobbs majority is any indication, this rightward shift is just getting started.

But this conservative legal revolution is only half of the story. The other half is just as important: the collapse of liberal constitutional thinking. Liberals have ?lost anything that would animate a positive theory of what the Constitution should be,? says the legal scholar Larry Kramer. ?And so they?ve been left with a kind of potpourri of leftover things from the periods when liberals were ascendant in the ?60s and ?70s.?

Kramer is a former dean of Stanford Law School, the current president of the William and Flora Hewlett Foundation and the author of?The People Themselves: Popular Constitutionalism and Judicial Review.? And according to him, it hasn?t always been this way. For most of American history, politicians, from Jefferson to Lincoln to Franklin Roosevelt, believed that constitutional interpretation was inextricable from politics. And they put forward distinct visions of what the Constitution meant and the kind of country it was written to build. But then, in response to the progressive victories of the Warren court, liberals began to embrace the doctrine of judicial supremacy: the view that the final authority on the Constitution rests with the courts. This has resulted in both the conservative legal victories of the past few decades and liberals? muddled, weak response.

So this is a conversation about the collapse of liberal constitutional politics: why it happened, what we can learn from it and what a renewed, progressive vision of the Constitution could look like. We also discuss why the founders weren?t actually originalists at all, whether liberal constitutional thinking has been captured by the legal profession, what a liberal alternative to originalism could consist of, why changing the size of the court (despite its controversies) has been an important tool for staving off constitutional crisis, the case for an ?anti-oligarchy Constitution,? the merits of imposing supermajority requirements on court decisions and nominations, why Kramer views Roosevelt?s infamous court-packing effort as a major success and more.

Mentioned:

Larry Kramer?s testimony at the Presidential Commission on the Supreme Court of the United States

?Judicial Supremacy and the End of Judicial Restraint? by Larry D. Kramer

?Marbury and the Retreat from Judicial Supremacy? by Larry D. Kramer

?The Judicial Tug of War? by Adam Bonica and Maya Sen

Book recommendations:

The Anti-Oligarchy Constitution by Joseph Fishkin and William E. Forbath

The Second Creation by Jonathan Gienapp

When We Cease to Understand the World by Benjamín Labatut

We?re hiring a researcher! You can apply here or by visiting nytimes.wd5.myworkdayjobs.com/News

Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at [email protected]

You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of ?The Ezra Klein Show? at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast, and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.

?The Ezra Klein Show? is produced by Annie Galvin and Rogé Karma; fact-checking by Michelle Harris, Mary Marge Locker, Kate Sinclair and Irene Noguchi; original music and mixing by Isaac Jones; audience strategy by Shannon Busta. Our executive producer is Irene Noguchi. Special thanks to Kristin Lin and Kristina Samulewski.

2022-07-05
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A Guide to the Supreme Court's Rightward Shift

In the past few weeks alone, the Supreme Court has delivered a firestorm of conservative legal victories. States now have far less leeway to restrict gun permits. The right to abortion is no longer constitutionally protected. The Environmental Protection Agency has been kneecapped in its ability to regulate carbon emissions, and by extension, all executive branch agencies will see their power significantly diminished.

But to focus only on this particular Supreme Court term is to miss the bigger picture: In the past few decades, conservative court majorities have dragged this country?s laws to the right on almost every issue imaginable. Shelby County v. Holder gutted the Voting Rights Act and opened the door for states to pass restrictive voting laws. Rucho v. Common Cause limited the court?s ability to curb partisan gerrymandering. Citizens United v. Federal Election Commission unleashed a torrent of campaign spending. Janus v. AFSCME Council 31 weakened unions. A whole slew of cases, including some decided on the shadow docket during the Covid-19 pandemic, undercut federal agencies? power to help govern in an era of congressional gridlock. And that?s only a partial list.

Kate Shaw is a law professor at Cardozo School of Law, a co-host of the legal podcast Strict Scrutiny and a former clerk for Justice John Paul Stevens. In this episode, she walks me through the most significant Supreme Court cases over the past 20 years, from the court?s decision to hand George W. Bush the presidency in 2000, to the dismantling of the Voting Rights Act, to the assertion of an individual?s right to bear arms.

Along the way, we discuss the right?s decades-long effort to transform American law from the bench, how Republican-appointed judges have consistently entrenched Republican political power, the interpretive bankruptcy of constitutional originalism, how the Warren Court radicalized the conservative legal movement, what might happen to decisions like Obergefell v. Hodges now that the court majority seems to be so comfortable throwing out precedent, what cases to watch in the Roberts Court?s next term, and more.

Mentioned:

?After Citizens United: How Outside Spending Shapes American Democracy? by Nour Abdul-Razzak, Carlo Prato and Stephane Wolton

?The Most Important Study in the Abortion Debate? by Annie Lowrey

Book recommendations:

The Turnaway Study by Diana Greene Foster

Torn Apart by Dorothy Roberts

Who Decides? by Jeffrey S. Sutton

51 Imperfect Solutions by Jeffrey S. Sutton

Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at [email protected]

You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of ?The Ezra Klein Show? at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast, and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.

?The Ezra Klein Show? is produced by Annie Galvin and Rogé Karma; fact-checking by Michelle Harris, Rollin Hu, Mary Marge Locker and Kate Sinclair; original music by Isaac Jones; mixing by Isaac Jones; audience strategy by Shannon Busta. Our executive producer is Irene Noguchi. Special thanks to Kristin Lin, Kristina Samulewski, David A. Kaplan, Ian Millhiser, Aziz Rana and Kate Redburn.

2022-07-01
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The Supreme Court Went Off the Rails Long Before Dobbs

On Friday, a Supreme Court majority voted to overturn Roe v. Wade. On Sunday, we released an episode with Dahlia Lithwick that goes through the court?s decision in detail, and we will continue to come out with new episodes on the ruling ? and its vast implications ? in the days and weeks to come. 

Today, we?re re-airing an episode that we originally released in February of this year with Columbia Law professor Jamal Greene ? a conversation that is even more relevant now than it was when we originally released it. The Dobbs ruling may be the most poignant example of how extreme the U.S. Supreme Court has become in recent years, but it?s certainly not the only one. 

?Getting race wrong early has led courts to get everything else wrong since,? writes Greene in his book ?How Rights Went Wrong.? But he probably doesn?t mean what you think he means.

?How Rights Went Wrong? is filled with examples of just how bizarre American Supreme Court outcomes have become. An information processing company claims the right to sell its patients? data to drug companies ? it wins. A group of San Antonio parents whose children attend a school with no air-conditioning, uncertified teachers and a falling apart school building sue for the right to an equal education ? they lose. A man from Long Island claims the right to use his homemade nunchucks to teach the ?Shafan Ha Lavan? karate style, which he made up, to his children ? he wins.

Greene?s argument is that in America, for specific reasons rooted in our ugly past, the way we think about rights has gone terribly awry. We don?t do constitutional law the way other countries do it. Rather, we recognize too few rights, and we protect them too strongly. That?s created a race to get everything ruled as a right, because once it?s a right, it?s unassailable. And that?s made the stakes of our constitutional conflicts too high. ?If only one side can win, it might as well be mine,? Greene writes. ?Conflict over rights can encourage us to take aim at our political opponents instead of speaking to them. And we shoot to kill.?

It?s a grim diagnosis. But, for Greene, it?s a hopeful one, too. Because it doesn?t have to be this way. Supreme Court decisions don?t have to feel so existential. Rights like food and shelter and education need not be wholly ignored by the courts. Other countries do things differently, and so can we. 

We also discuss the reason we have courts in the first place, why Greene thinks Germany?s approach to abortion rights could be a model for America, Greene?s case for appointing nearly 200 justices to the U.S. Supreme Court and much more. 

Mentioned: 

?The Dobbs Decision Isn?t Just About Abortion. It?s About Power.? by ?The Ezra Klein Show?

Book Recommendations:

Rights Talk by Mary Ann Glendon

Law and Disagreement by Jeremy Waldron

Cult of the Constitution by Mary Anne Franks 

We?re hiring a researcher! You can apply here or by visiting nytimes.wd5.myworkdayjobs.com/News

Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at [email protected]

?The Ezra Klein Show? is produced by Annie Galvin and Rogé Karma; fact-checking by Michelle Harris and Kristina Samulewski; original music by Isaac Jones; mixing by Jeff Geld and Isaac Jones; audience strategy by Shannon Busta. Our executive producer is Irene Noguchi. Special thanks to Kristin Lin and Kristina Samulewski.

2022-06-28
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The Dobbs Decision Isn?t Just About Abortion. It?s About Power.

On Friday, a Supreme Court majority voted to overturn Roe v. Wade. Nearly all abortions are already banned in at least nine states, home to 7.2 million women of reproductive age. And it is likely that other bans and restrictions will follow. As the court?s three liberal justices put it in their dissenting opinion, ?One result of today?s decision is certain: the curtailment of women?s rights, and of their status as free and equal citizens.?

But this decision doesn?t just represent the end of abortion as a constitutional right; what we?re also witnessing, before our eyes, is a legal regime change ? one with striking implications for the future of the court and the country. In their majority opinion on the case, Dobbs v. Jackson Women?s Health Organization, the justices cast aside precedent, the court?s historical norms and evidence-based concerns about how this ruling will disrupt people?s lives. Even Chief Justice John Roberts, a fellow conservative, argued in a concurring opinion that the decision went too far, writing, ?The court?s opinion is thoughtful and thorough, but those virtues cannot compensate for the fact that its dramatic and consequential ruling is unnecessary to decide the case before us.?

The Dobbs ruling, in other words, isn?t just about abortion; it?s a conservative court majority flexing its newly unrestrained power.

Dahlia Lithwick is a reporter covering the Supreme Court for Slate, the host of the podcast ?Amicus? and someone I turn to whenever I need to understand the court. We discuss what Roe did and what Dobbs changes; why the rights to abortion, contraception and same-sex marriage have a much firmer constitutional basis than conservatives argue; how the majority opinion implicitly threatens those latter two rights, even while claiming to uphold them; why the most revealing opinion in the case is Roberts?s scathing concurrence; why the majority?s absolute disregard for precedent is so terrifying for defenders of the court; the way Justice Samuel Alito?s constitutional originalism freezes past injustices into present law; what the current composition of the court means for the future of liberal governance in America; and more.

Mentioned: 

?Dobbs v. Jackson Women?s Health Organization?

?There?s a Way to Outmaneuver the Supreme Court, and Maine Has Found It? by Aaron Tang

Book recommendations:

Hope in the Dark by Rebecca Solnit

Man?s Search for Meaning by Viktor E. Frankl

You Can?t Be Neutral on a Moving Train by Howard Zinn

We?re hiring a researcher! You can apply here or by visiting nytimes.wd5.myworkdayjobs.com/News

Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at [email protected]

You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of ?The Ezra Klein Show? at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast, and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.

?The Ezra Klein Show? is produced by Annie Galvin and Rogé Karma; fact-checking by Michelle Harris, Rollin Hu, Mary Marge Locker and Kate Sinclair; mixing and original music by Isaac Jones; additional engineering by Pat McCusker; audience strategy by Shannon Busta. Our executive producer is Irene Noguchi. Special thanks to Kristin Lin and Kristina Samulewski.

2022-06-26
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The Case for Prosecuting Trump

The Jan. 6 hearings have made it clear that Donald Trump led a concerted, monthslong effort to overturn a democratic election. The extensive interviews ? over 1,000 ? that the House select committee conducted prove that Trump was told there was no evidence of election fraud, but he pressed his anti-democratic case regardless. And it appears that the hearings may be making an impact on public opinion: An ABC News/Ipsos survey released Sunday found that 58 percent of respondents believe Trump should be charged with a crime for his role in the Jan. 6 attack, up from 52 percent in April.

But after all the evidence comes to light, will he actually face legal consequences? If the answer is no, then what might future presidents ? including, perhaps, Trump himself ? be emboldened to do? And what would that mean for the future of the American political system?

Jamelle Bouie is a Times Opinion columnist and co-host of the podcast ?Unclear and Present Danger.? Bouie brings a remarkable historical depth to his writing about American politics. His columns about Jan. 6 ? and the troubling idiosyncrasies of Trump?s presidency before it ? have shown how the former president?s illiberal actions have threatened the constitutional foundation of American government. So I asked him on the show to help me process the Jan. 6 hearings with an eye to America?s past, and also to its uncertain future.

We discuss why Jan. 6 may be not just an insurrection but ?a kind of revolution or, at least, the very beginning of one?; how the anti-democratic nature of the American Constitution makes our system vulnerable to demagogues like Trump; the most important takeaways from the hearings so far; what could happen in 2024 if Trump is allowed to walk free; what Trump allies are already doing to gain power over elections; why refusing to prosecute Trump would itself be a ?radical act?; why Republicans have grown increasingly suspicious of ? and hostile to ? representative democracy; why Bouie thinks prosecuting Trump would be worth the political fallout it would cause; and more.

Mentioned:

?Trump Had a Mob. He Also Had a Plan.? by Jamelle Bouie

?America Punishes Only a Certain Kind of Rebel? by Jamelle Bouie

?Prosecute Trump? Put Yourself in Merrick Garland?s Shoes.? by Jack Goldsmith

Book recommendations:

Free Soil, Free Labor, Free Men by Eric Foner

Salmon P. Chase by Walter Stahr

What It Took to Win by Michael Kazin

We're hiring a researcher! You can apply here or by visiting nytimes.wd5.myworkdayjobs.com/News

Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at [email protected]

You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of ?The Ezra Klein Show? at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast, and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.

?The Ezra Klein Show? is produced by Annie Galvin and Rogé Karma; fact-checking by Michelle Harris, Rollin Hu, Mary Marge Locker and Kate Sinclair; mixing and original music by Isaac Jones; audience strategy by Shannon Busta. Our executive producer is Irene Noguchi. Special thanks to Kristin Lin and Kristina Samulewski.

2022-06-24
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Two Years Later, We Still Don?t Understand Long Covid. Why?

Depending on the data you look at, between 10 and 40 percent of people who get Covid will still have symptoms months later. For some, those symptoms will be modest. A cough, some fatigue. For others, they?ll be life-altering: Debilitating brain fog. Exhaustion. Cardiovascular problems. Blood clotting.

This is what we call long Covid. It?s one term for a vast range of experiences, symptoms, outcomes. It?s one term that may be hiding a vast range of maladies and causes. So what do we actually know about long Covid? What don?t we know? And why don?t we know more than we do?

Dr. Lekshmi Santhosh is an assistant professor at UCSF Medical Center, and the founder and medical director of UCSF?s long Covid and post-ICU clinic. Her clinic opened in May 2020 and was one of the first to focus on treating long Covid patients specifically. We discuss the wildly broad range of symptoms that can qualify as long Covid; the confusing overlaps between Covid symptoms and other diseases; whether age, race, sex and pre-existing conditions affect a person?s chances of contracting long Covid; why it?s so difficult to answer a seemingly simple question like, ?How many people have gotten long Covid??; what to make of a recent study that seemingly undermines the biological existence of long Covid; how worried we should be about correlations between Covid and medical disasters like heart attacks, strokes and abnormal blood clotting; and more.

Mentioned:

?Post?COVID Conditions Among Adult COVID-19 Survivors Aged 18?64 and ?65 Years ? United States, March 2020?November 2021? by Lara Bull-Otterson, Sarah Baca1, Sharon Saydah, Tegan K. Boehmer, Stacey Adjei, Simone Gray and Aaron M. Harris

?Long COVID after breakthrough SARS-CoV-2 infection? by Ziyad Al-Aly, Benjamin Bowe and Yan Xie

?A Longitudinal Study of COVID-19 Sequelae and Immunity: Baseline Findings? by Michael C. Sneller, C. Jason Liang, Adriana R. Marques, et al.

?Positive Epstein?Barr virus detection in coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) patients? by Ting Chen, Jiayi Song, Hongli Liu, Hongmei Zheng and Changzheng Chen

?Risk factors and disease profile of post-vaccination SARS-CoV-2 infection in UK users of the COVID Symptom Study app? by Michela Antonelli, Rose S. Penfold, Jordi Merino, Carole H. Sudre, Erika Molteni, Sarah Berry, et al.

?Understanding and Improving Recovery From COVID-19? by Aluko A. Hope

?Markers of Immune Activation and Inflammation in Individuals With Postacute Sequelae of Severe Acute Respiratory Syndrome Coronavirus 2 Infection? by Michael J. Peluso, Scott Lu, Alex F. Tang, Matthew S. Durstenfeld, et al.

Book Recommendations:

In Shock by Dr. Rana Awdish

Every Deep-Drawn Breath by Wes Ely

Mountains Beyond Mountains by Tracy Kidder

We're hiring a researcher! You can apply here or by visiting nytimes.wd5.myworkdayjobs.com/News

Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at [email protected]

You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of ?The Ezra Klein Show? at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast, and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.

?The Ezra Klein Show? is produced by Annie Galvin, Jeff Geld and Rogé Karma; fact-checking by Haylee Millikan and Michelle Harris; original music by Isaac Jones; mixing by Jeff Geld; audience strategy by Shannon Busta. Our executive producer is Irene Noguchi. Special thanks to Kristin Lin, Kristina Samulewski, Dr. Ziyad Al-Aly and Lauren Nichols.

2022-06-21
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The End of 'The Everything Bubble'

This week, the S&P 500 entered what analysts refer to as a bear market. The index has plunged around 22 percent from its most recent peak in January. Many growth stocks and crypto assets have crashed double or triple that amount.

New home sales declined 17 percent in April, causing some analysts to argue that the housing market has peaked. And, in response to rising inflation, the Federal Reserve just approved its largest interest rate increase since 1994, meaning asset prices could dip even lower.

To understand what?s happening in the stock market right now, you have to understand the era that preceded it. Rana Foroohar is a columnist at The Financial Times, and the author of several books on the economy including ?Makers and Takers? and ?Don?t Be Evil.? Her view is that a decade-plus of loose monetary policy has been the economic equivalent of a ?sugar high,? which kept the prices of stocks, housing and other assets going up and up and up, even as the fundamentals of the economy have been eroding. This ?everything bubble,? as she calls it, was bound to burst ? and that?s exactly what she thinks is happening right now.

So I wanted to have her on the show to discuss the economic choices ? and lack thereof ? that led to this point. We also discuss why the increasing power of the financial sector hasn?t resulted a stronger economy, whether the housing market has indeed hit its peak, the massive missed opportunity for public investment while interest rates were low, why policymakers treat asset price inflation so differently from other types of inflation, the true costs of the meat we eat and clothes we wear, why crypto represents the apotheosis of hyper-financialized capitalism, why I?m skeptical of the argument that we?re moving rapidly toward a less globalized world and more.

Book recommendations:

All That She Carried by Tiya Miles

Beautiful Country by Qian Julie Wang

The Rise and Fall of the Neoliberal Order by Gary Gerstle

We're hiring a researcher! You can apply here or by visiting nytimes.wd5.myworkdayjobs.com/News

Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at [email protected]

You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of ?The Ezra Klein Show? at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast, and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.

?The Ezra Klein Show? is produced by Annie Galvin, Jeff Geld and Rogé Karma; fact-checking by Michelle Harris and Andrea López Cruzado; original music by Isaac Jones; mixing by Jeff Geld; audience strategy by Shannon Busta. Our executive producer is Irene Noguchi. Special thanks to Kristin Lin and Kristina Samulewski.

2022-06-17
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Is Climate Change a Reason to Avoid Having Children? and Other Listener Questions Answered

It?s that time of year, when we invite listeners to send in questions, and I answer them on the air. And as usual, you delivered. I?m joined by my producer Annie Galvin, who asks me some of the most intriguing questions of the many we received: Is climate change a reason to forgo having kids? What would happen if Trump were allowed to return to Twitter, in the event of an Elon Musk acquisition? Should Biden run again in 2024? Is wokeness killing the Democratic Party?

We also discuss the recent congressional hearing about U.F.O. sightings; whether it?s a good thing that so many talented young people are going to work in consulting, finance and corporate law; the worrisome anti-institutional direction of the Republican Party; why government is failing to deliver on liberals? policies and promises ? and how to start fixing that problem; whether Americans? distrust in institutions is warranted; why I could use some recommendations for a good reading chair; and more.

Mentioned:

We're hiring a researcher! You can apply here or by visiting nytimes.wd5.myworkdayjobs.com/News

?Your Kids Are Not Doomed? by Ezra Klein

?Empirically Grounded Technology Forecasts and the Energy Transition? by Rupert Way, Matthew Ives, Penny Mealy and J. Doyne Farmer

?Ibram X. Kendi on What Conservatives ? and Liberals ? Get Wrong About Antiracism? by The Ezra Klein Show

?A Different Way of Thinking About Cancel Culture? by Ezra Klein

Public Citizens by Paul Sabin

?This Is Why Your Holiday Travel Is Awful? by Marc J. Dunkelman

?Are We More Polarized? Or Just Weirder?? by The Ezra Klein Show

?Donald Trump Didn?t Hijack the G.O.P. He Understood It.? by The Ezra Klein Show

?Robert Sapolsky on the Toxic Intersection of Poverty and Stress? by Vox Conversations

Book Recommendations:

Amusing Ourselves to Death by Neil Postman

The Invention of Nature by Andrea Wulf

Beautiful World, Where Are You by Sally Rooney

Music Recommendations:

?Spring 1? by Max Richter

Christian Löffler

Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at [email protected]

You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of ?The Ezra Klein Show? at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast, and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.

?The Ezra Klein Show? is produced by Annie Galvin, Jeff Geld and Rogé Karma; fact-checking by Michelle Harris; original music by Isaac Jones; mixing by Jeff Geld; audience strategy by Shannon Busta. Our executive producer is Irene Noguchi. Special thanks to Kristin Lin and Kristina Samulewski.

2022-06-14
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