Of all the characters in The Big Short, fund manager Michael Burry (depicted by Christian Bale in the movie version) seemed the least likely to grant Michael Lewis a follow-up interview. Burry was one of the first to see the subprime housing market crisis coming, and he actually helped Wall Street banks develop the credit-default swap, the instrument that allowed short sellers to make their bets against the market. Lately, Burry has been in the news again because his fund has taken short positions against tech giants Nvidia and Palantir. Now he finally sits down with Lewis as part of this series.

Burry recently launched a newsletter called Cassandra Unchained.

Order The Big Short audiobook, now narrated by Michael Lewis, on Audible, Spotify, pushkin.fm/bigshort or wherever you get audiobooks.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

To wrap up our series on The Big Short, Michael Lewis speaks with two people who represent two very different responses to the financial crisis of 2008: US Senator Elizabeth Warren, an expert in bankruptcy law who became an advisor to the Obama White House before running for higher office in Massachusetts. And Michael interviews former Trump White House advisor and right-wing podcaster Steve Bannon, who talks about how the financial crisis radicalized him.

Order The Big Short audiobook, now narrated by Michael Lewis, on Audible, Spotify, pushkin.fm/bigshort or wherever you get audiobooks.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

To make sense of Wall Street’s hangover from the crash described in The Big Short, Michael Lewis calls up Matt Levine. Levine is author of the Money Stuff newsletter for Bloomberg Opinion and co-host of a podcast by the same name. He’s also a former investment banker who was working at Goldman Sachs during the market crisis of 2008. He and Lewis talk about Bitcoin, bank regulation, and new forms of risk-taking — all ways Wall Street has changed since the crisis.

Order The Big Short audiobook, now narrated by Michael Lewis, on Audible, Spotify, pushkin.fm/bigshort or wherever you get audiobooks.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Andrew Ross Sorkin writes the business and policy newsletter DealBook for the New York Times and is co-anchor of Squawk Box on CNBC. He also has a historical bent, and has a new book out about the causes and consequences of the Great Depression in the 1930s. Sorkin speaks with Michael Lewis about how that crisis differed from the financial crash of 2008, and what we can learn by comparing the two eras.

For more, check out Sorkin’s book 1929: Inside the Greatest Crash in Wall Street History, and How it Shattered a Nation.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

When Michael Lewis wrote The Big Short, there was an extra character in the story: The Federal Reserve System, the central bank of the US, which bought up bad debt on the balance sheets of big Wall Street banks and trading firms. To better understand the Fed’s role in the financial crisis of 2008, Michael turns to UC Berkeley economics professor Emi Nakamura. And in the process, we get a master class in how currency works, and why there’s still some gold in the vaults of the Fed.

For more, check out Emi Nakamura’s Macro Policy Lab.

Order The Big Short audiobook, now narrated by Michael Lewis, on Audible, Spotify, pushkin.fm/bigshort or wherever you get audiobooks.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

The Big Short is centered around the story of investment advisors who noticed something was seriously wrong with the subprime housing market starting in the early 2000s. Why did the traders at FrontPoint Partners and others bet against the herd, at great risk to their reputations and their own careers? And what happened after those bets paid off — because the market crashed? Michael Lewis catches up with some of the most memorable characters in his book to find out what being right has done to their lives.

For more, check out a newsletter by Danny Moses, Vincent Daniel, and Porter Collins called WHAT ARE WE DOING? (WAWD).

Order The Big Short audiobook, now narrated by Michael Lewis, on Audible, Spotify, pushkin.fm/bigshort or wherever you get audiobooks. 

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Michael Lewis speaks with Greg Lippmann, formerly a bond trader at Deutsche Bank, made famous when he was portrayed by Ryan Gosling in the movie version of The Big Short. And Lewis catches up with Steve Eisman, the Wall Street investor who was played by actor Steve Carell. When did they each start to suspect the subprime mortgage market was rotten, and why? And how did they perceive each other in the wary days and months before the market crashed?

For more, check out Steve Eisman’s podcast, The Real Eisman Playbook.

Order The Big Short audiobook, now narrated by Michael Lewis, on Audible, Spotify, pushkin.fm/bigshort or wherever you get audiobooks.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Against the Rules producer Lidia Jean Kott is the host of a new podcast series called The Chinatown Sting. It’s about a group of unlikely suspects at the center of a massive drug bust that took place in 1980s New York.  Recently Michael spoke with LJ about her series at a coffee shop in Brooklyn called Land to Sea.

You can listen to all six episodes of the “The Chinatown Sting” on Apple, Spotify, pushkin.fm/chinatown, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

When Adam McKay decided to make a movie based on The Big Short, he was mainly known for his comedies. But he managed to get a bevy of star actors — among them Ryan Gosling, Brad Pitt, Steve Carell and Margot Robbie — to sign on and bring the intensity and arcane financial jargon of Wall Street to life. Michael Lewis sits down with McKay a decade after he made the Oscar-winning movie version of The Big Short to learn about the challenges of getting the film made — and why he’s still making movies about societal collapse.

Get The Big Short audiobook, now narrated by Michael Lewis, on Audible, Spotify, Apple Books, pushkin.fm/bigshort or wherever you get audiobooks.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Back in 2008, Michael Lewis started paying attention to Wall Street again, as banks and investment funds started to announce massive losses. Fifteen years ago, he published The Big Short, about a group of traders and investors who bet against a market that refused to see what was coming. Now it’s time to revisit both the book and the Oscar-winning movie based on it. 

Get The Big Short audiobook, now narrated by Michael Lewis, on Audible, Spotify, Apple Books, pushkin.fm/bigshort or wherever you get audiobooks.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Is anyone trying to regulate sports gambling on the federal level in the US? In the fall of 2024, Connecticut Democratic Senator Richard Blumenthal introduced a bill with New York Congressman Paul Tonko. The SAFE Bet would restrict sports gambling ads and would help fund more gambling addiction treatment, among other things. Blumenthal speaks with Michael Lewis about why he sees sports gambling as a public health disaster in the making.

Further reading: Blumenthal’s press release on the SAFE Bet Act.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Michael Lewis invites over Yale psychology professor Dr. Laurie Santos, host of The Happiness Lab at Pushkin, for a chat about what scientific research has to tell us about sports fandom, teenagers, and gambling.

You can sign up for The Happiness Lab newsletter here.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

As an anthropologist, Natasha Schüll spent more than a decade doing field work in Vegas casinos, especially among the slot machine addicts. She tells Michael Lewis why many of those who play slots actually hate to win. And she talks about how the digital overhaul of Vegas has made all forms of gambling, including sports gambling, more like slots.

For further reading: Addiction by Design: Machine Gambling in Las Vegas by Natasha Schüll.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Perhaps you have someone in your life who’s prone to sports gambling. Michael Lewis has someone. So he comes up with a scheme to “inoculate” his 17-year-old son against the lure of placing bets online. All the while, Lewis tries to craft the perfect “master class” for would-be gamblers to understand the dangers of what they might be getting themselves into.

Here's his reading list:

The Logic of Sports Betting by Matt Davidow and Ed Miller

Stephen Pinker’s Rationality: What It Is, Why It Seems Scarce, Why It Matters

Weapons of Math Destruction by Cathy O’Neil

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Michael Lewis gets a glimpse of sports gambling's future by talking with writers in Great Britain and Australia, where the industry is even more entrenched. But the US has its own peculiar history of failing to regulate dangerously addictive new products, and blaming the users instead. Especially when powerful industry advocates are able to pay scientists to sow doubt and delay the day of reckoning.

For further reading: 
Lying for Money: How Legendary Frauds Reveal the Workings of our World by Dan Davies

Crikey’s coverage on sports gambling in Australia: Punted

Patrick Radden Keefe’s Empire of Pain: The Story of the Sackler Family and Purdue Pharma

Merchants of Doubt by Naomi Oreskes and Erik Conway.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Has betting based on inside intel on games gone down since sports gambling was legalized in the US? Not really, as Michael Lewis finds out. But what's gone up is misery for athletes. We hear from Atlanta Hawks forward Larry Nance, Jr. about the rage, threats and wheedling that pro athletes now endure. The NCAA, former Massachusetts governor Charlie Baker, is trying to protect student athletes on campus, while their friends all bet on them, often underaged. Overall, the “integrity landscape” for US sports looks more and more pot-holed by the day.

For further reading: NCAA sports wagering survey

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Just recently, Michael Lewis was a guest on the "Prof G" podcast with Scott Galloway. He talks about the rise of sports betting and why the consequences might be a "disaster" for US society. And the two discuss the subject of Lewis's latest book, "Going Infinite." 

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

On a visit to Las Vegas, Michael Lewis meets three old-school sports bookies. Chris Andrews, Jimmy Vaccaro, and Vinny Magliulo book bets and set odds at the South Point Hotel Casino. They talk about how they got started in Vegas, the origins of the prop bet, and why it's bad for business to limit smart bets.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Michael Lewis sits down with Billy Walters, one of the most famous sports bettors of all time. They talk about Walters' impoverished childhood in Kentucky, and his transformation from an auto dealer to a professional poker player in Las Vegas to a sobered-up millionaire who's been indicted five times.

For further reading: Gambler: Secrets from a Life at Risk by Billy Walters.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

As a resident of California, Michael Lewis cannot place bets on any of the online sports books at the center of this season. They?re not allowed to operate in the state. But why? We hear from pastors, Native Americans and short-sellers about why a handful of states are still holding out, and why those efforts are most likely doomed.

For further reading: Steve Ruddock?s gaming newsletter Straight to the Point

Inside the $400 million fight to control California sports betting by Gus Garcia-Roberts, Washington Post.

This episode has been corrected to reflect the accurate title of Victor Rocha. He is Conference Chair of the Indian Gaming Association, not the Chair.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

What does it mean to be a ?very important person? in the world of online sports betting? Not necessarily what you think. We hear from recovering gambling addicts and state regulators frustrated with some of the perverse incentives to keep people on a losing streak. Meanwhile, our show?s own producers hope for a VIP night at the concert of the year.

For further reading: Legalizing Sports Gambling Was a Huge Mistake by Charles Fain Lehman. 

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

The role has many names: ?Runner,? ?mover,? ?betting partner,? and ?mule.? As skilled sports gamblers find themselves limited on apps, they turn to these affiliates to place their bets in return for a piece of the proceeds. Against the Rules decides to explore this murky world by signing up for mule-dom with one of the world?s most skilled sports bettors.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Constitutional lawyer and former US Solicitor Ted Olson recently died at the age of 84. Olson represented the state of New Jersey in its efforts to overturn a federal ban on sports gambling. Those efforts succeeded, as we hear in our episode "Welcome to the Garden State." But Olson and Michael Lewis talked about many other aspects of his vivid legal career. We're offering their full conversation today.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Michael Lewis heads to Las Vegas to explore the way sports betting used to work, up until the day it was rapidly legalized by states around the country. We meet the betting sharps who figured out what others couldn?t and set the odds for other bookies. That is, up until everyone seemed to have a casino on their smartphone. But the new online casino differs from the old ones in an important way: It doesn?t take all bets.

For further reading: 

Edward Thorp?s Beat the Dealer

?Cigars, Booze, Money: How a Lobbying Blitz Made Sports Betting Ubiquitous? by 

Eric Lipton and Kenneth P. Vogel

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

As the US election nears, Michael Lewis sits down with Nate Silver, co-host of the Pushkin podcast Risky Business (along with the writer, psychologist and professional poker player Maria Konnikova). They talk about why people bet on elections, the problem with sports gamblers in the United States, and Silver?s new book, On the Edge: The Art of Risking Everything. 

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Is there a difference between fandom and religion? In Pittsburgh, it can be hard to tell. Fans of the city?s football team, the Pittsburgh Steelers, seem to have a cradle-to-grave devotion, complete with a golden relic, the ?terrible towel.? Michael Lewis talks with sociologist Marci Cottingham, a native of Steeler Nation, about her work studying the religious overtones of fandom, and why the positive experiences of sports fans should get more scholarly attention.

For further reading: Marci Cottingham?s Practical Feelings: Emotions as Resources in a Dynamic Social World

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

It may seem like sports gambling got legalized overnight in the US. But it was in fact a winding road to get there. Michael Lewis speaks with legal historian and University of Chicago professor Alison L. LaCroix about all the factors that led to the Supreme Court overturning, in 2018, a federal law called the Professional and Amateur Sports Protection Act. And they explore why, in some eras of US history, the Court tends to lean towards ?states rights? arguments.

For further reading: Alison LaCroix?s The Interbellum Constitution: Union, Commerce, and Slavery in the Age of Federalisms

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

How did we get from fantasy sports to legalized sports betting? The path is convoluted, but most of it winds through New Jersey. Michael Lewis speaks with former governor Chris Christie, among other Jersey politicians, as well as lobbyists for the gaming industry. Plus we hear from Ted Olson, the lawyer who kept bringing the Garden State?s constitutional challenge until it finally reached the Supreme Court ? and hit a jackpot.

For further reading:

Albert Chen?s Billion Dollar Fantasy

Murphy v. NCAA

ESPN timeline of how sports betting was legalized

SCOTUS Blog: The Tenth Amendment, Anti-Commandeering and Sports Betting

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Bill Bradley was already famous in college as the epitome of certain American virtues: integrity, honesty, and athleticism. As an NBA star, he took those virtues to the big leagues. As a US Senator, he had a chance to codify some of them into law and prevent the rise of sports betting. But at the same time, others in Bradley's state were making huge money on this illicit form of gambling.

For further reading:

John McPhee?s A Sense of Where You Are

American Bettors Voice, non-profit advocacy for sports bettors co-founded by Gadoon ?Spanky? Kryollos.

Bill Bradley?s Values of the Game

David Hill's The Vapors: Southern Family, the New York Mob, and the Rise and Fall of Hot Springs, America's Forgotten Capital of Vice

Professional and Amateur Sports Protection Act of 1992.
https://www.congress.gov/bill/102nd-congress/senate-bill/474

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Sports fans experience incredible highs and lows, and spend loads of money on a product over which they have no control. But for a long time, no one bothered to study the minds or impulses of fans. Michael Lewis finds out how that's changing as writers and academics learn more about the powerful psychology of fandom. Just in time for technology to exploit fandom more than ever.

For further reading: 

Eric Simons? book The Secret Lives of Sports Fans

Research by Murray State University psychology professor Daniel Wann on fandom: https://murraystate.academia.edu/DanielWann

The Henry Tajfel Experiments

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Against the Rules is going to Vegas (by way of New Jersey!). Host Michael Lewis bets high and low to find out how Americans, and their state governments, got addicted to a new form of legalized gambling. This season, we?ll meet bookies, lobbyists, lawyers and professional sharps. All in their own ways trying to figure out why fans might hitch their life savings to their favorite team?s performance. 

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Sam Bankman-Fried was sentenced to 25 years in prison after being convicted of fraud and conspiracy. Michael Lewis and Lidia Jean Kott were there in court. They talk about what happened with Judging Sam?s legal expert, Rebecca Mermelstein, a former federal prosecutor and partner at O'Melveny and Myers.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

While Sam Bankman-Fried has been on trial, the cryptocurrency exchange he founded, FTX, has been going through bankruptcy proceedings. Jonathan Lipson, a professor at Temple Law School, tells Michael Lewis that he believes the proceedings have highlighted problems with the US bankruptcy system. 

Jonathan Lipson?s research paper ?FTX?d: Conflicting Public and Private Interests in Chapter 11? is forthcoming in the Stanford Law Review. You can read a draft here. 

You can listen to our previous interview about the FTX bankruptcy with Jonathan?s co-author, David Skeel, here. 

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This fall we covered the trial of Sam Bankman-Fried, the founder of the failed cryptocurrency exchange FTX. He was found guilty of fraud and conspiracy and could face decades in prison. Now, we are covering his sentencing. Check here for those episodes starting the week of March 25th.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Enjoy this episode of Freakonomics Radio, where Michael Lewis sat down with Stephen Dubner to discuss his book ?Going Infinite: The Rise and Fall of a New Tycoon.?

Description from the original episode:
Lewis got incredible access to Sam Bankman-Fried, the billionaire behind the spectacular FTX fraud. His book is a bestseller, but some critics say he went too easy on S.B.F. Lewis tells us why the critics are wrong ? and what it?s like to watch your book get turned into a courtroom drama.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Enjoy this episode from another Pushkin Industries podcast, Talk Easy with Sam Fragoso.

Upon taking a walk with crypto billionaire Sam Bankman-Fried, writer Michael Lewis had a sense that there might be a story here. In the intervening two years, that story has taken a series of twists and turns, resulting in Lewis? new book Going Infinite: The Rise and Fall of a New Tycoon.

At the top, we walk through Bankman-Fried?s Manhattan trial, the subject at the center of this winding story, and why Lewis was first interested in observing him. Then, he unpacks Bankman-Fried?s belief in effective altruism, his probabilistic approach to trading, and how his Stanford law professor parents shaped his thinking.

On the back-half, we discuss the ten-day period of FTX?s collapse, the scene in the Bahamas as Bankman-Fried filed for bankruptcy, and why Lewis felt a kinship with Sam?s parents in that moment. To close, Michael reflects on his own journalistic tendencies and how he managed to write this book in the aftermath of great personal tragedy.

For thoughts, reflections, and guest suggestions, drop Sam a line at [email protected].

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Lidia Jean Kott talks to journalist Elizabeth Lopatto about what it was like to cover the trial, the similarities it shared with Elizabeth Holmes? trial, and what this all says about millennials, fraud, and the future of the tech industry. 

This conversation was recorded on November 13.

Questions for Michael? Submit them by clicking the link in our show notes or visiting atrpodcast.com

To access bonus episodes, and to listen to all of our coverage ad-free, sign up for Pushkin plus on the Against The Rules show page in Apple Podcasts or at Pushkin.fm/plus.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

It's all over. Sam Bankman-Fried was found guilty on all seven counts. But what now? Michael Lewis, Lidia Jean Kott, and Judging Sam?s legal expert, O?Melveny defense attorney Rebecca Mermelstein, reflect on the outcome and look ahead to sentencing, SBF's other legal troubles, and the fate of the cooperating witnesses.

This conversation was recorded on November 7.

Questions for Michael? Submit them by clicking the link in our show notes or visiting atrpodcast.com

To access bonus episodes, and to listen to all of our coverage ad-free, sign up for Pushkin plus on the Against The Rules show page in Apple Podcasts or at Pushkin.fm/plus.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

The jury, after about 4 and a half hours of deliberation, has delivered its verdict ? guilty on all seven counts. Lidia Jean Kott was in the courtroom when it happened. Her conversation with financial reporter Jacob Goldstein was recorded on November 2.

Questions for Michael? Submit them by clicking the link in our show notes or visiting atrpodcast.com

To access bonus episodes, and to listen to all of our coverage ad-free, sign up for Pushkin plus on the Against The Rules show page in Apple Podcasts or at Pushkin.fm/plus.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

CORRECTION: In an earlier version of this episode, our guest incorrectly stated that in the case of a hung jury, a defendant cannot be retried without risking double jeopardy. This is incorrect. If the jury hangs, then the defendant can be retried. We have edited the episode to remove this and apologize for the error.

It?s nearly time for the jury to begin their deliberations. They?ll file into a backroom at the courthouse, and SBF?s fate will be in their hands. But what goes on behind those doors? How will the jury get to its verdict? Trial consultant Ellen Leggett returns to the show to talk through the process with Lidia Jean Kott.

This conversation was recorded on October 27 and updated on November 1.

Questions for Michael? Submit them by clicking the link in our show notes or visiting atrpodcast.com

To access bonus episodes, and to listen to all of our coverage ad-free, sign up for Pushkin plus on the Against The Rules show page in Apple Podcasts or at Pushkin.fm/plus.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

We're finally in the home stretch. Today the prosecution finished their cross examination of Sam Bankman-Fried, the defense followed up with a redirect, and then both sides rested. It?s Michael?s last day at court, but Lidia Jean will attend until the bitter end. They sit down to talk through the trial day?s events.

This conversation was recorded on October 31.

Questions for Michael? Submit them by clicking the link in our show notes or visiting atrpodcast.com

To access bonus episodes, and to listen to all of our coverage ad-free, sign up for Pushkin plus on the Against The Rules show page in Apple Podcasts or at Pushkin.fm/plus.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Sam Bankman-Fried finishes direct and faces withering cross-examination by the government?s chief prosecutor, Danielle Sassoon. Michael Lewis and Lidia Jean Kott share notes during lunch, then Lidia Jean sits down with Pushkin financial reporter and host Jacob Goldstein to talk through the day?s events.

This conversation was recorded on October 30.

Questions for Michael? Submit them by clicking the link in our show notes or visiting atrpodcast.com

To access bonus episodes, and to listen to all of our coverage ad-free, sign up for Pushkin plus on the Against The Rules show page in Apple Podcasts or at Pushkin.fm/plus.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

The day is finally upon us: Sam Bankman-Fried takes the stand. Michael Lewis and Lidia Jean meet up after a long day in court and discuss everything that went down.

This conversation was recorded on October 27.

Questions for Michael? Submit them by clicking the link in our show notes or visiting atrpodcast.com

To access bonus episodes, and to listen to all of our coverage ad-free, sign up for Pushkin plus on the Against The Rules show page in Apple Podcasts or at Pushkin.fm/plus.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Michael Lewis finishes his book tour and joins Lidia Jean Kott in court. His timing, as usual, is impeccable. The government rests its case. And then, everyone thinks Sam Bankman-Fried will take the stand. Instead, in a surprise twist, Judge Kaplan sends the jury home. LJ and Michael meet up on the courthouse steps to talk through the day?s events. 

This conversation was recorded on October 26.

Questions for Michael? Submit them by clicking the link in our show notes or visiting atrpodcast.com

To access bonus episodes, and to listen to all of our coverage ad-free, sign up for Pushkin plus on the Against The Rules show page in Apple Podcasts or at Pushkin.fm/plus.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

After a few days off, the trial resumes tomorrow, October 26. The prosecution has said they will likely be ready to rest their case by midday. Michael Lewis, Lidia Jean Kott and Rebecca Mermelstein, a partner at the law firm O?Melveny & Myers, sit down to analyze the prosecution?s case and talk about what might happen next, including the possibility of Sam Bankman-Fried taking the stand.

This conversation was recorded on October 23.

Questions for Michael? Submit them by clicking the link in our show notes or visiting atrpodcast.com

To access bonus episodes, and to listen to all of our coverage ad-free, sign up for Pushkin plus on the Against The Rules show page in Apple Podcasts or at Pushkin.fm/plus.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Voices of the victims of Sam Bankman-Fried?s alleged crimes have been few and far between during the prosecution?s presentation of its case. On today?s show, Lidia Jean Kott sits down with Jake Thacker, a tech worker from Portland, Oregon who borrowed money to bet big on FTX, only to be left holding the bag. He says he?s now bankrupt and unsure whether he?ll be able to keep his home. 

This conversation was recorded on October 23. 

Questions for Michael? Submit them by clicking the link in our show notes or visiting atrpodcast.com

To access bonus episodes, and to listen to all of our coverage ad-free, sign up for Pushkin plus on the Against The Rules show page in Apple Podcasts or at Pushkin.fm/plus.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Another week come and gone, and like everything SBF, it wasn?t without a healthy dose of drama. Lidia Jean Kott catches Michael Lewis and Jacob Goldstein up on all that has gone down. 

This conversation was recorded on the evening of October 19.

Questions for Michael? Submit them by clicking the link in our show notes or visiting atrpodcast.com

To access bonus episodes, and to listen to all of our coverage ad-free, sign up for Pushkin plus on the Against The Rules show page in Apple Podcasts or at Pushkin.fm/plus.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

When nerdy gamer Sam Bankman-Fried rocketed to fame as the world?s richest 29-year-old, he pledged to donate his billions to good causes. But when Sam's crypto exchange FTX collapsed, billions of dollars went missing, and Sam was in handcuffs, those who knew him were left wondering ? who was Sam really? A well-meaning billionaire who made a mistake? Or a calculated con man? From Wondery and Bloomberg, the makers of The Shrink Next Door, comes a new story of incredible wealth, betrayal, and what happens when ?doing good? goes really, really, bad.

Binge all episodes of Spellcaster ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery App or on Apple Podcasts. Listen to Spellcaster. 

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Today on the show, Michael talks with Matt Levine, business columnist at Bloomberg News and author of the newsletter ?Money Stuff.? Matt knows more about how crypto markets work than just about anyone else. And also about how they don?t work. Like when there?s a more than eight billion dollar hole nobody seems to have been able to fill. Matt and Michael talk trial, SBF and FTX. 

This conversation was recorded at 2pm on October 17. 

Questions for Michael? Submit them by clicking the link in our show notes or visiting atrpodcast.com

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

It was supposed to be a quiet Monday in court, but it turned out to be everything but. Nishad Singh, a former top executive at FTX, and a close personal friend of the Bankman-Fried family took the stand. Lidia Jean calls Michael Lewis from court during her lunch break to get his take on Singh, and updates us with the latest as the SBF trial enters its third week.

This conversation was recorded on the evening of October 16. 

Questions for Michael? Submit them by clicking the link in our show notes or visiting atrpodcast.com

To access bonus episodes, and to listen to all of our coverage ad-free, sign up for Pushkin plus on the Against The Rules show page in Apple Podcasts or at Pushkin.fm/plus.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.